Author Topic: Heater/boiler/wmo  (Read 16447 times)

spencer1885

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Heater/boiler/wmo
« on: January 31, 2011, 09:33:44 PM »
quote author=mobile_bob link=topic=5619.msg66767#msg66767 date=1296504805]
to the group:

mark my business partner burns waste motor oil to heat both the shop and his house

his house is quite large by most standards at ~6000sq/ft, the shop ~3000sq/ft

the house uses an omni waste oil boiler and the shop a lenaire waste oil air/air heater.

the omni is cleaned out every month and produces about 2 gallons of ash and carbon, after burning anywhere between 4 and 15 gallons per day

the lenaire burns a butt load of oil all winter and is cleaned out once a year, it produces approx 1/2 gallon of ash/carbon

so why the disparity? and what can we learn from it?

one possible and probable explanation might be,  the boiler sidewalls are ~120 degree's F while it is likely that the sidewalls of the air/flue gas exchanger of the lenaire is probably well over 200 degree's F

the cooler side walls of the boiler will allow a much higher deposition of carbon
and some ash, the deposits of carbon would then be further heated by the continuous flames converting more and more of the carbon to ash.

the hotter side walls of the lenaire would impede the deposition of carbon and ash, and the force of the blower/gun assy would simply expel a significantly higher amount of carbon out the stack before further flame and heat could convert that carbon to ash, therefore explaining the much lower ash deposits in the furnace at cleanout.

now if we go back and look at spencer's rig and how he uses it

he reports using it to provide power for his modest home, and from the video it would appear he uses a 55gallon drum in thermal siphon. 

it is my bet that the majority of run time the engines is lightly loaded, perhaps under
1kw electrical, with this size of cooling capacity it is likely that the engine is running too cool, perhaps no more than the omni reference earlier. if this is the case, as i am fairly certain of, any carbon will deposit more so in the cylinder/piston, and head
and be subjected to further heating and convert to more ash,, light loading also causes
an engine to load up a bit, added oily patially burned goop combined with this ash
and collected in the rings and ring lands would work together to wear the dog snot out
of his engine.

this might also explain how something like a changfa 195 does so much better on waster oil as related by the fellow David from africa, the cooling system of a changfa is such that even without a load the engine will attain much higher temperatures than a lister can achieve. due to a much smaller cooling capacity
of approx 2 gallons as opposed to 30 or more in the 55 gallon drum.

the lister uses the surface of the drum to release the heat from the coolant water, while the changfa uses the phase change to cool with so much less coolant and far less surface area.

i also strongly suspect that the fellow with the ashwemegh 12/2 in georgia
had his setup either thermstatically controlled, under heavier average loading, or had
a cooling system sized appropriately for the load he presented to the engine.

there are lots of pieces to this puzzle, and a clearer picture is emerging.

it seems obvious to me that burning waste motor oil produces ash, how much ash,
 where it gets generated and deposited as well as how an engine is able to tolerate
it will all work together to establish how long the engine is likely to last.

it seem reasonable to conclude that running an engine at a light average load, running with an oversized cooling system for that average load, made from parts of lower quality than what might be needed for this type of fuel, will all work together to dramatically limit the longevity of the engine,,, as has been reported by spencer.

bob g


[/quote] 




That post is full of theory and misinformation

I own a Omni boiler and also a Thermobile jet type burner workshop heater and both produce lots of ash
The Omni boiler produces more to clean out because of the reduce air flow through the heat tubes where the slower the gasses pass through the more heat is transferred to the water, at no point any where in the combustion chamber of this Omni waste oil fired boiler is there any carbon just white dry ash.
All so the Thermobile blown air heater has no carbon just white ash.
The Thermobile heater being a blown air heater has a faster air speed through the combustion chamber as heat is dispersed over a longer heat exchanger and this has the result in more ash being blown out the chimney stack.
At no point will get black clumps of carbon when WMO is completely combusted.
The fact still remains that this ash from fully combusted WMO in any fairly large amounts will wear the moving pasts of an engine out
All fact as I own all three types of commercially produce waste oil heater and have done for many years.
Go to this site    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/altfuelfurnace/
At no point will black carbon exit the chimney unless there's a problem or you have just lit a vaporise pan heater which is not up to temperature.


At no point was my engine under loaded or running cold, FACT

Some one here keeps forgetting that fully combusted WMO makes white ash and black lumps of carbon are not fully combusted WMO

mobile_bob

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 09:56:17 PM »
spencer

you are right, i am wrong, are you happy now?

bottom line is you still wore out your engine burning waste oil, and you
seem intent on blaming solely on the oil and have no interest in exploring
why and what if anything can be done about it, rather you pride yourself at
using sophomoric rhetoric to ridicule others reports of being able to use
the wmo as a motor fuel successfully.

ok, they are "all" wrong too!  are you happy now?

you are nothing but a troll, albeit a bit more sophisticated than the typical troll
in that you do own an engine, (that is yours right).

its too bad that your attitude makes it hard for newbies and others less prone to
engage in argument to get involved in these forums.  if i were a newbie with questions i would be very afraid of reporting anything for fear of you calling me "stupid", "mad" or my engine a "toy".

the thing is Spencer i have been around a very long time, and will continue to be around a while longer (God willing) , and as for diesel engine's this is not my first rodeo either. i am no newbie and i am not shy, i have enough "whitehaven" in my family tree to not back down from a perfectly good fight.

so you are going to have to do a hell of a lot better than simply picking what you want, spinning it in your favor, dismissing others reports and accept that not many here look to you as any sort of expert on anything other than being what in all likelihood is a "troll".

yes Spencer you have started to irritate me, however i am reminded of times i run into a developmentally  challenged soul outside of a convenience store that  starts an argument with me, i usually just smile and offer him a hot dog or a soda and we both part happy.

so how about a hot dog spencer?

;)

bob g
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spencer1885

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 10:17:19 PM »
bob and DD,
Lets call it a draw  ;D
I will take a back seat and see if any one can come up with a simple solution
 :)
Spencer

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 10:45:04 PM »
Spencer I am not going to argue anymore but I would like to throw something out to think about. I reported to you about the ash production from the Kwick Lube here in town. I have no idea what brand it is but I do know it is a forced air and not a boiler heat. So if you read Bobs post about his friend who uses 2 of them one being boiler and one being forced air. The forced air has less build up of ash probably due to the fact that the temperature in the burn box is higher. So with that being when I was watching your video of you showing the ash on your engine you were able to scrape you fingers across the exhaust and you even reported I believe the temperature of the exhaust was not very hot. So maybe the higher the temperature the less collection or production of ash.
So if you consider what David from Afarica has to offer his Changfa runs hotter than Listers. Now if you look at the post of the guy who had the Lister for sale who stated 17,000 hours who had no reason to lie because most people will say thier engines have less hours than more. This post came out before you posted you findings about WMO and he was not even defending the use of WMO. So I would have to say the higher the heat the less the problem. This is just something that I think has merrit. You can think what ever you wish. Mike
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

t19

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 11:21:47 PM »
STOP STOP STOP
This waste Motor oil thing has gone on too long

Spencer, everyone by now knows your stand on WMO.  Give it a rest, long posts, going round and round... not good

Now I have not had this many emails and pms on a topic since someone posted that a Lister in the garage was good for attracting women.

Anymore of this crap and posting rights will be suspended.  I have posted three times in various WMO topics to keep things civil and informative... anyone who cannot work within those rules should start their own forum and post there.

cheers

There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

spencer1885

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 11:30:36 PM »
Spencer I am not going to argue anymore but I would like to throw something out to think about. I reported to you about the ash production from the Kwick Lube here in town. I have no idea what brand it is but I do know it is a forced air and not a boiler heat. So if you read Bobs post about his friend who uses 2 of them one being boiler and one being forced air. The forced air has less build up of ash probably due to the fact that the temperature in the burn box is higher. So with that being when I was watching your video of you showing the ash on your engine you were able to scrape you fingers across the exhaust and you even reported I believe the temperature of the exhaust was not very hot. So maybe the higher the temperature the less collection or production of ash.
So if you consider what David from Afarica has to offer his Changfa runs hotter than Listers. Now if you look at the post of the guy who had the Lister for sale who stated 17,000 hours who had no reason to lie because most people will say thier engines have less hours than more. This post came out before you posted you findings about WMO and he was not even defending the use of WMO. So I would have to say the higher the heat the less the problem. This is just something that I think has merrit. You can think what ever you wish. Mike


Hi DD,
With all respect, you must have not read my reply to bobs post on waste oil fired heaters and boilers because if you had you would have seen I answered and addressed all those points  you have just mentioned.
Low temperatures leading to, or causing partial  combustion of WMO result in clumps of carbon forming and this is not the case.
Full combustion of WMO produces white abrasive ash and lots of it, as I keep having to repeat
There seems to be some confusion on this point, as your self and bob keep getting this fundamental point wrong.

Cheers
Spencer

mobile_bob

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 02:31:56 AM »
Spencer

we seem to be having a credibility problem, i am not sure of its origins
but you report a damaged engine in 1700 hours on wmo?

back in sept of 2010 you  report the following

http://lister-engine.com/lef/index.php?topic=5474.0

from that post

"The head gasket failed one night so the next day I stripped the engine down just 150 hours short of clocking up 2000 hours.
All this time its been run on waste engine oil mix and there was no carbon in the exhaust port and the head and piston top had very little carbon.
When I pulled the piston the rings and the sides of the piston where carbon free and clean.
I fitted a new gasket and its powering the pc and the house as I write this report.
I think this is good news and I see know reason to stop burning this free fuel."

so you see, we have a problem with your reporting, somehow since sept
when the engine had 150 hours short of 2000 (=1850) and the engine having very little carbon and no other issues apart from a blown head gskt, all these months
later the engine went down in hours 1700 and wore itself out?

do i need to go back further and post what you reported earlier, burning things like 2stroke oil, hydraulic oil, cutting with gasoline or waste diesel, filtering with only a sock filter, etc...

so what gives?
back in sept (4 months ago) you were a proponent of burning waste oils of all types
and report no engine damage, no you report few hours and a worn out engine?

something doesn't add up??

bob g

« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:31:39 AM by mobile_bob »
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westcoaster

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 04:47:02 AM »
..... You mean I can't drain my crank case directly into my fuel tank??




but what I really want to know is, if a plane is sitting on a conveyor belt and the belt is moving..... Oh, wait a sec. Mythbusters covered that already! :-*

westcoaster

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 04:54:17 AM »
I'll also say those lumps of carbon the engine processes once in a while can't be good for anything either. Some of that grit will get down between the rings and cylinder wall and act just like sand paper. Have it happen often enough, and no more mystery as to what's wrecking the engine...

spencer1885

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 10:14:03 AM »
Spencer

we seem to be having a credibility problem, i am not sure of its origins
but you report a damaged engine in 1700 hours on wmo?

back in sept of 2010 you  report the following

http://lister-engine.com/lef/index.php?topic=5474.0

from that post

"The head gasket failed one night so the next day I stripped the engine down just 150 hours short of clocking up 2000 hours.
All this time its been run on waste engine oil mix and there was no carbon in the exhaust port and the head and piston top had very little carbon.
When I pulled the piston the rings and the sides of the piston where carbon free and clean.
I fitted a new gasket and its powering the pc and the house as I write this report.
I think this is good news and I see know reason to stop burning this free fuel."

so you see, we have a problem with your reporting, somehow since sept
when the engine had 150 hours short of 2000 (=1850) and the engine having very little carbon and no other issues apart from a blown head gskt, all these months
later the engine went down in hours 1700 and wore itself out?

do i need to go back further and post what you reported earlier, burning things like 2stroke oil, hydraulic oil, cutting with gasoline or waste diesel, filtering with only a sock filter, etc...

so what gives?
back in sept (4 months ago) you were a proponent of burning waste oils of all types
and report no engine damage, no you report few hours and a worn out engine?

something doesn't add up??

bob g




bob,
From memory at 1800 hours the thicker Indian head gasket went pop, to replace with new thinner genuine gasket had to reset bump clearance,as I had not decoked at the first 1000 hours I removed the barrel to decoke and reset the bump clearance for the new gasket thickness.

Engine parts where very clean with no deposits, but rings where worn out which after reading old style listers web site a year before it did mention ring wear with WMO but no bore wear, but no reason why or how quickly they would wear out.
Replaced rings .
Bore had also worn through the chrome but did not state this because at the time I was not sure what was happening and why this wear had happened at such low hours.
The engine runs and ran some more hours in this condition, but it breathed a lot and become noisier and slower to start[ loss of compression].

At the beginning the only problem that I new of and experience daily was carbon forming on the injector tip and all the different oils I tried burning made no difference to this problem.
Increasing the solvent % did how ever seem to sort the problem.

The clean internals of the top of the engine could be a result of constant sanding by the ash. LOL   :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Any points not covered please ask again.

Spencer

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 11:40:06 AM »
This was a negative response and I thought I could remove it. I can just replace it. DD
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 02:07:46 PM by DRDEATH »
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DRDEATH

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 01:01:23 PM »
I would like to say that with everything published it did make me think what would I like to risk on using this on an engine. With one of my engines I would not come close to risking WMO on it since parts are to hard to find and I have no extras. As for my CE even though parts for them are hard to find I have some extras and the cost savings may offset the difference. In the end there are no absolutes that a short death or a long run time will come from WMO. That is no different than if you service you engine correctly or just let it run until the oil turns to mud in the sump. So I am thankful this discussion and results were posted. It help me in my quest. Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

spencer1885

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 01:31:50 PM »
Spencer if the engine in question had an hour meter as you have stated then it seems you data if flawed. 1850 hrs, 1700 hrs and 1800 hrs. I would say something is rotten in denmark. DD

DD,
I have no idea what your talking about, it's all be written down in black and white in previous posts, please read them first and stop making strange comments. ???
 :)
Spencer

billswan

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011, 01:54:04 PM »
bob and DD,
Lets call it a draw  ;D
I will take a back seat and see if any one can come up with a simple solution
 :)
Spencer

Ok everyone spencer did make the above post and I have pm him and received a positive response so lets just let it rest.

He is firm in his findings now let all of us move on so that the powers of admin do not have to bust up the party.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

DRDEATH

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Re: Heater/boiler/wmo
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 02:06:01 PM »
Bill I should have removed my negative post because it served no purpose. The outcome is still the same. Before all of this I would have dumped anything I would have found in my engines without any reservations. Now with an engine that parts are almost impossible to find there is NO WAY I will do that. If it were not for being aircolled I would not be so concerned. So no matter what Spencer did open my eyes to the fact it could be a problem. With engines that are more easily to find parts or jury rig parts it then comes back to was it worth it. So I will keep my remarks positive. Mike DD   PS I will remove it for the good of the millions.
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.