Author Topic: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project  (Read 40683 times)

Bottleveg

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 08:22:01 PM »
I found this photo. Looks a bit like my workshop.  :D
http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Misc/ListerCinderford.jpg
It doesn’t give a very good representation of a cylinder but I thought it would be interesting.
The photo shows a type of cylinder that started to be used in the late 50’s, with exposed main studs.
The UK cylinder has the four main studs screwed into the crank block but also has another three smaller ones screwed into the cylinder, so it has seven studs to hold the head down.


Well,
 From This Picture I Could Not Understand Or See Those 3 Small Nuts To Referred Too

Sorry, I couldn’t find a photo of the cylinder. I just put that one in for interest. I’ll take a photo of one and post it here, unless someone else has one?

Amarbir[India]

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 08:27:14 PM »
Well every lister has a dipper right  .

" .Also What You Mean By "xyz'ers offset idler bolts" .Well In India We Have Great Gaskets But No One Bothers To Send Or Export Quality here ,Same On People .True If you Assemble a engine From quality Parts There will be no regrets and i confirm this ,I have experienced this myself  .

XYZER dippers are hollow forcing extra oil to rod bearing.


The camshaft idler gear (#45) is bolted to the case with the cam idler bolt (#44) also holding the tapered roller bearing main housing.  


The offset bolt was designed to correct the incorrect location found on all "Listeroids" of the Idler bolt causing excessive gear train backlash.



Sir ,
 Understood The Dipper ,But The Idler cam bolt is different how from the indian once you said  .Also you are talking of more oil reservoir "for The  tappets " ,I Could Not See The Same in Pictures ,Sorry i am very unfamiliar with the english terminology
Regards

Amarbir Singh Dhillon [ www.indianlisteroid.com ]
Indian Listers - Research ,Repair And Spares

Bottleveg

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2011, 08:36:19 PM »
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.


Sir ,
 I Also Asked Sir To Explain Me More About This  .Are You Talking About The Cylinder Liner in This Section of The Lister .You Mean To Say its Chrome And Plain Bore .Chrome Means its of chrome ,Does plain bore mean it of some inferior metal them chrome .Do explain me about unsleeved and sleeved

The Indian cylinders have liners or sleeves in the bore. The UK cylinders don’t have this liner. The bore is part of the casting. The bores were chrome plated (until towards the end of production) along the area were the rings travel.
By ‘plain bore’ I’m referring to an un-plated or un-chromed bore.

xyzer

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2011, 09:30:33 PM »
Sir ,
 Understood The Dipper ,But The Idler cam bolt is different how from the indian once you said  .Also you are talking of more oil reservoir "for The  tappets " ,I Could Not See The Same in Pictures ,Sorry i am very unfamiliar with the english terminology
The bolt has a offset/eccentric/ idler gear bearing surface that corrects the location of the idler gear caused by the incorrect placement of the bolt hole for the idler gear bolt.  The head of the bolt has a resivor that holds more oil to lube the idler gear. The original bolt has a slot cut to collect splash oil for the idler gear. There is no connection with the tappets.

 
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Amarbir[India]

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2011, 03:57:10 AM »
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.


Sir ,
 I Also Asked Sir To Explain Me More About This  .Are You Talking About The Cylinder Liner in This Section of The Lister .You Mean To Say its Chrome And Plain Bore .Chrome Means its of chrome ,Does plain bore mean it of some inferior metal them chrome .Do explain me about unsleeved and sleeved

The Indian cylinders have liners or sleeves in the bore. The UK cylinders don’t have this liner. The bore is part of the casting. The bores were chrome plated (until towards the end of production) along the area were the rings travel.
By ‘plain bore’ I’m referring to an un-plated or un-chromed bore.


Well,
 This then Means That The Indian Lister Copies Are Better in This Depart .Atleast They Have Changeable Liners So Instead of throwing away the whole iron mass we people can actually change liners .
Regards

Amarbir Singh Dhillon [ www.indianlisteroid.com ]
Indian Listers - Research ,Repair And Spares

Amarbir[India]

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2011, 04:00:31 AM »
Sir ,
 Understood The Dipper ,But The Idler cam bolt is different how from the indian once you said  .Also you are talking of more oil reservoir "for The  tappets " ,I Could Not See The Same in Pictures ,Sorry i am very unfamiliar with the english terminology
The bolt has a offset/eccentric/ idler gear bearing surface that corrects the location of the idler gear caused by the incorrect placement of the bolt hole for the idler gear bolt.  The head of the bolt has a resivor that holds more oil to lube the idler gear. The original bolt has a slot cut to collect splash oil for the idler gear. There is no connection with the tappets.

 

Sir ,
   That Is Fine It Has No Connection With Tappets ,I am still thinking how it lubes .I think the lube is by the splash in the oil by the dipper and also by the oil pump inside the crank casing
Regards

Amarbir Singh Dhillon [ www.indianlisteroid.com ]
Indian Listers - Research ,Repair And Spares

Bottleveg

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #36 on: February 03, 2011, 10:28:24 AM »
Yes they are being made in India. Also chrome or plain bore.
Thanks for pointing out they are un-sleeved, like the original, I forgot that bit.


Sir ,
 I Also Asked Sir To Explain Me More About This  .Are You Talking About The Cylinder Liner in This Section of The Lister .You Mean To Say its Chrome And Plain Bore .Chrome Means its of chrome ,Does plain bore mean it of some inferior metal them chrome .Do explain me about unsleeved and sleeved

The Indian cylinders have liners or sleeves in the bore. The UK cylinders don’t have this liner. The bore is part of the casting. The bores were chrome plated (until towards the end of production) along the area were the rings travel.
By ‘plain bore’ I’m referring to an un-plated or un-chromed bore.


Well,
 This then Means That The Indian Lister Copies Are Better in This Depart .Atleast They Have Changeable Liners So Instead of throwing away the whole iron mass we people can actually change liners .

Yes a removable liner would be better. However, the original chrome plated cylinders were extremely long lasting. When they finally wore out they were re-bored +10 and oversize piston and rings fitted. If Lister carried out the work they would also re-chrome the bore.

Grael

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2011, 05:00:41 AM »
Dunno if it would be possible, but electric start kits would be nice to have available.  ;)
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aqmxv

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2011, 09:40:33 PM »

Yes a removable liner would be better. However, the original chrome plated cylinders were extremely long lasting. When they finally wore out they were re-bored +10 and oversize piston and rings fitted. If Lister carried out the work they would also re-chrome the bore.
I want to explain this a little more for Amarbir's benefit.

First, it is worth mentioning that the original Lister CS engine was designed for extremely long life in a primitive (agricultural) setting in UK and for export.  The reasoning was that it was better to make the engine very durable and inexpensive to run at the expense of a higher purchase cost. 

By this reasoning, Lister elected to cast an integrated cylinder and water jacket and then apply their proprietary chromium plating to it.  In combination with plain iron piston rings this provides an extremely long life for the cylinder, as the piston rings (cheap and easy to replace) wear much more quickly than the very hard chrome plate of the cylinder bore.  A Lister CS with weak compression will generally need just some valve work and a replacement of piston rings before it can be returned to service.
I can think of three reasons why the Indian manufacturers of listeroids chose to change to a separate wet sleeve cylinder and water jacket:

  • It was cheaper to make the water jacket separately and dig out all the casting sand, then press the cylinder into the water jacket than it was to make the cylinder and water jacket together, which was the most complicated casting on a Lister CS
  • It was easier to make a round cylinder out of a round centrifugal casting than it was to bore a stationary sand casting with inclusions and voids to be round and smooth
  • Industrial chromium plating is both difficult and somewhat expensive.  A properly plated cylinder bore is one of the more difficult forms of industrial plating, and it is possible that nobody in India knew how to do the Listard process (which was apparently nothing more than reversing anode and cathode currents for a few minutes at the end of the plating cycle to erode the bore plating for oil retention).  Now we have other, cheaper methods of hardening a cylinder bore surface, such as nitride treatment or electric induction hardening.  The original chrome plating procedure would be OK too, if properly done.

The one weak point of the Lister CS in colder climates is that it does not tolerate freezing well, and the water jacket often cracks when water is frozen in the engine.  This is what our British correspondent is noting, and why there is a demand for new cylinders in the UK.  To be honest, I don't think there's a disadvantage to a properly machined wet-sleeve cylinder compared to the integral cylinder casting of the originals.  But there are qualifiers there - the holes in the water jacket casting must be square to its top and bottom faces, and the cylinder bore must be a close fit in those holes with a well-defined O-ring relief in place. I would arrange for a tight slip fit and use RTV and a flange seal rather than O rings, but hey-I'm a 21st century guy.
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Amarbir[India]

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2011, 09:45:47 PM »

Yes a removable liner would be better. However, the original chrome plated cylinders were extremely long lasting. When they finally wore out they were re-bored +10 and oversize piston and rings fitted. If Lister carried out the work they would also re-chrome the bore.
I want to explain this a little more for Amarbir's benefit.

First, it is worth mentioning that the original Lister CS engine was designed for extremely long life in a primitive (agricultural) setting in UK and for export.  The reasoning was that it was better to make the engine very durable and inexpensive to run at the expense of a higher purchase cost. 

By this reasoning, Lister elected to cast an integrated cylinder and water jacket and then apply their proprietary chromium plating to it.  In combination with plain iron piston rings this provides an extremely long life for the cylinder, as the piston rings (cheap and easy to replace) wear much more quickly than the very hard chrome plate of the cylinder bore.  A Lister CS with weak compression will generally need just some valve work and a replacement of piston rings before it can be returned to service.
I can think of three reasons why the Indian manufacturers of listeroids chose to change to a separate wet sleeve cylinder and water jacket:

  • It was cheaper to make the water jacket separately and dig out all the casting sand, then press the cylinder into the water jacket than it was to make the cylinder and water jacket together, which was the most complicated casting on a Lister CS
  • It was easier to make a round cylinder out of a round centrifugal casting than it was to bore a stationary sand casting with inclusions and voids to be round and smooth
  • Industrial chromium plating is both difficult and somewhat expensive.  A properly plated cylinder bore is one of the more difficult forms of industrial plating, and it is possible that nobody in India knew how to do the Listard process (which was apparently nothing more than reversing anode and cathode currents for a few minutes at the end of the plating cycle to erode the bore plating for oil retention).  Now we have other, cheaper methods of hardening a cylinder bore surface, such as nitride treatment or electric induction hardening.  The original chrome plating procedure would be OK too, if properly done.

The one weak point of the Lister CS in colder climates is that it does not tolerate freezing well, and the water jacket often cracks when water is frozen in the engine.  This is what our British correspondent is noting, and why there is a demand for new cylinders in the UK.  To be honest, I don't think there's a disadvantage to a properly machined wet-sleeve cylinder compared to the integral cylinder casting of the originals.  But there are qualifiers there - the holes in the water jacket casting must be square to its top and bottom faces, and the cylinder bore must be a close fit in those holes with a well-defined O-ring relief in place. I would arrange for a tight slip fit and use RTV and a flange seal rather than O rings, but hey-I'm a 21st century guy.


Meoo Meoo  ,
   Thanks a Tonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Buddy ,what Am Explanation .I Have More To Share When I am Off To Chandigarh With You Folks As i Have a Slow Speed Connection To The Net Here  .
Regards

Amarbir Singh Dhillon [ www.indianlisteroid.com ]
Indian Listers - Research ,Repair And Spares

t19

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2011, 11:30:48 PM »
You know I could never understand why the Brits did not use antifreeze... my Listeroid sits in -30C awaiting its call to duty, with no freezing issues.
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aqmxv

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2011, 01:59:59 PM »
You know I could never understand why the Brits did not use antifreeze... my Listeroid sits in -30C awaiting its call to duty, with no freezing issues.
Well, ethylene glycol antifreeze only appeared in 1926.  I believe it was a DuPont offering, which would have made it an expensive foreign offering in the UK market.  I wouldn't be surprised if there were a process patent on the production of ethylene glycol at the time.

I know that methanol antifreeze (which is awful - corrosive and boils off at running temperatures) was still common in WWII - it was used in the Allison and Merlin-powered US fighter planes, among other things.

Then if you consider that most Lister CS engines used thermosyphon tank cooling, that's a big volume of water to treat with antifreeze.  John Farmer doesn't have that kind of cash laying around in depression-era Britain.  But he can (and does) drain the water out of the engine when it's below freezing at a cost of zero.  Until he delegates the task to his 15 year old son who forgets about it one frosty evening while thinking about the milk maid down the lane...
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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2011, 07:55:48 PM »
First, it is worth mentioning that the original Lister CS engine was designed for extremely long life in a primitive (agricultural) setting in UK and for export.  The reasoning was that it was better to make the engine very durable and inexpensive to run at the expense of a higher purchase cost.  

By this reasoning, Lister elected to cast an integrated cylinder and water jacket and then apply their proprietary chromium plating to it.  In combination with plain iron piston rings this provides an extremely long life for the cylinder, as the piston rings (cheap and easy to replace) wear much more quickly than the very hard chrome plate of the cylinder bore.  A Lister CS with weak compression will generally need just some valve work and a replacement of piston rings before it can be returned to service.
I can think of three reasons why the Indian manufacturers of listeroids chose to change to a separate wet sleeve cylinder and water jacket:

  • It was cheaper to make the water jacket separately and dig out all the casting sand, then press the cylinder into the water jacket than it was to make the cylinder and water jacket together, which was the most complicated casting on a Lister CS
  • It was easier to make a round cylinder out of a round centrifugal casting than it was to bore a stationary sand casting with inclusions and voids to be round and smooth
  • Industrial chromium plating is both difficult and somewhat expensive.  A properly plated cylinder bore is one of the more difficult forms of industrial plating, and it is possible that nobody in India knew how to do the Listard process (which was apparently nothing more than reversing anode and cathode currents for a few minutes at the end of the plating cycle to erode the bore plating for oil retention).  Now we have other, cheaper methods of hardening a cylinder bore surface, such as nitride treatment or electric induction hardening.  The original chrome plating procedure would be OK too, if properly done.

The one weak point of the Lister CS in colder climates is that it does not tolerate freezing well, and the water jacket often cracks when water is frozen in the engine.  This is what our British correspondent is noting, and why there is a demand for new cylinders in the UK.  To be honest, I don't think there's a disadvantage to a properly machined wet-sleeve cylinder compared to the integral cylinder casting of the originals.  But there are qualifiers there - the holes in the water jacket casting must be square to its top and bottom faces, and the cylinder bore must be a close fit in those holes with a well-defined O-ring relief in place. I would arrange for a tight slip fit and use RTV and a flange seal rather than O rings, but hey-I'm a 21st century guy.


Interesting to note that Lister's JP series (as they later became known) which slightly preceded the CS range, did use separate cast cylinder liners with I believe the same patented "Listard" chrome plating for longevity. I'd heard about the current reversal at the end of the process to create a minutely pitted surface, but this is the first confirmation I've read of that.

You didn't mention improved heat transfer when plating the bores directly, although this may be more relevant to air cooled engines. I was involved with Italian built Moto Guzzi V twin motorcycles for many years. They went one step further in the 70's providing chrome bores by plating directly to the alluminium cylinder barrels, claiming better heat transfer over the plain cast iron liners they were also using around that time. This was only partially successful as many suffered the chrome peeling from the surface, however they later developed far more successful "Nikasil" bores, plating with nickel instead.

Regards - Richard
« Last Edit: May 25, 2011, 11:19:25 PM by richardhula »

aqmxv

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Re: Back After 6 Months - The Indian Listeroid Project
« Reply #43 on: June 08, 2011, 11:09:04 PM »
Interesting to note that Lister's JP series (as they later became known) which slightly preceded the CS range, did use separate cast cylinder liners with I believe the same patented "Listard" chrome plating for longevity. I'd heard about the current reversal at the end of the process to create a minutely pitted surface, but this is the first confirmation I've read of that.

You didn't mention improved heat transfer when plating the bores directly, although this may be more relevant to air cooled engines. I was involved with Italian built Moto Guzzi V twin motorcycles for many years. They went one step further in the 70's providing chrome bores by plating directly to the alluminium cylinder barrels, claiming better heat transfer over the plain cast iron liners they were also using around that time. This was only partially successful as many suffered the chrome peeling from the surface, however they later developed far more successful "Nikasil" bores, plating with nickel instead.

Regards - Richard
I read about the Listard method here - don't have anything positive from an original source on this, although I suspect someone in UK would know.  It's intuitively obvious, though, electrochemical etching isn't exactly an unknown process.

Heat transfer is more of a concern for some engine designs than others.  The high power diesel crowd have to run very exotic antifreezes to cope with dry sleeved engines with high power density.

Chrome plated aluminum bores were always more problematic.  The Germans managed it consistently, as did the Japanese.  I had a 440 cc 2-stroke Kawasaki with chrome over aluminum cylinders.  I'm not shocked that the Italians had troubles with this in the '70s - they had trouble making stainless steel not rust in that decade.

Nikasil was adopted everywhere because it was a lot cheaper than chrome plate, I'd think, although there are horror stories involving silicon lined bores in the USA from when GM got it wrong in the Vega engine.
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