Author Topic: Danger engine damage  (Read 82608 times)

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #75 on: January 29, 2011, 12:05:09 AM »
12 midnight going out to switch the Lister off, 9 hours run time today ,26 fahrenheit out side but toasty in side thanks to the WMO heater ;D

Spencer



BigGreen

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #76 on: January 29, 2011, 12:05:43 AM »
I give up. I personally would love to see Spencer continue with trying to make WMO work in his system. He has practically everything he needs to try to improve but he keeps saying it can't be done. Forget conditioning the oil, upgrade liner hardness or any other sugestions made. It is obvious that he is hung up on the ash and can't or won't even try to control it. Yes, there will be ash, the more you burn per volume the more ash there will be. Yes, that ash wore out your unit. Either deal with it or walk away from it but stop coming here crying about it

SPENCER >> YOU ARE SHUNNED

Good Day Sir
Dave
Dave
More Power Ashwamegh 25/2 15kw

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #77 on: January 29, 2011, 12:51:47 AM »
actually i have learned a lot from the discussion

here is what i gather as "fact" so far and am left to conclude

if you name is spencer, and you have an original 6/1 and burn waste motor oil
for 8 plus hours a day, making electricity for you home, live in england, you can
expect no more than 1700 hours out of a cylinder kit.

now if your name is david and you have a changfa 195, burn waste motor oil, run similar hours, make electricity, live in africa you can expect more than 5000hours
and still have a functioning engine.

hmmm either it comes down to your name or brand of engine? or maybe country you are living in?

the only other report of impending doom was iirc from a listeroid, so maybe it has nothing to do with a persons name, country, hours of operation, what you are doing with it,   maybe its something to do with the engine type?

so lets look at that a bit deeper, the lister had a chrome bore, the listeroid did not
the both wore out in about the same amount of hours, so it can't be a material quality issue, so...

it must be the inferior design !!

lmao

its my story and i am stickin with it!

bob g
long live the mighty changfa,
like an escaped convict, it keeps running and running and running...
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

listerboy

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #78 on: January 29, 2011, 12:59:13 AM »
Doesn't diesel combustion produce a certain amount of carbon that also polishes the cylinder walls and rings? Which is harder, diesel carbon or WMO ash? :-[

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2011, 01:09:38 AM »
personally i don't think a lister gets hot enough to burn the oil to the ash point, but
rather leaves behind layers of carbon that when exposed to continual heat and pressure produce the ash our friend worries about.

i would suggest that any means of carbon removal probably would mediate the formation of ash.

btw guys

does this remind you of anyone we know?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RG0ochx16Dg

bob g
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Tijean

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2011, 01:58:15 AM »
Doesn't diesel combustion produce a certain amount of carbon that also polishes the cylinder walls and rings? Which is harder, diesel carbon or WMO ash? :-[

good question; It would be nice to put an exhaust particulate trap in place so you could collect, weigh, and microscopically examine the ash for granular shape and hardness. The white deposits on the head really give no indication what volume of ash is produced per unit of fuel consumption. It is only circumstantial evidence at this stage that the ash is mechanically doing all the damage. The real culprit could be gaseous in nature and if that component was curbed perhaps the  observed wear factor could be greatly changed.

I dont have the answers, but I can see too many loosely supported conclusions to consider it "case closed"  I suppose I will likely be told to  S... T.. F.... U.  since I haven't burned barrels and barrels of waste mineral oil.

Incidentally, it has been observed that the strength of ones convictions has no bearing on their correctness!
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2011, 02:15:59 AM »
Tijean

i put infinitely more weight behind any of your theories than i do observations
of a single individual that refuses to even recognize there might be other explanations
for what he has experienced

but then again, this isn't your first rodeo either!

many years ago while taking the battery of tests for ASE certifications, i was having a real problem answering almost every question, being multiple choice and having been a mechanic for a number of years, i had seen each of the 5 possible answers to each of the questions at some point of other as being plausible and correct.

that was probably the turning point for my thinking in that was the beginning of my understanding that there is not only black and white, but many shades of gray between.

life was much easier when everything was black/white, true/false, yes/no

it takes a lot of extra mental effort to process all the between possibilities.

so long story short, please post your thoughts,

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2011, 02:39:36 AM »
At lesat in might be quiet for awhile so we can hear from some other people with better ideas. Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2011, 02:51:53 AM »
Bob I have started a friendship with David in Africa and I invited him to look in on this forum because I believe he has some stories and information to share. I think I am going to send another email to tell him to stay away because I would be embarrassed if someone chastised him the way some are getting. I think his story is completely different than anyone in the US can imagine. Mike
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

Veggiefuel

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2011, 05:31:56 AM »
personally i don't think a lister gets hot enough to burn the the oil....

bob g

A very important observation because many lister(roid)s use a thermosiphon barrel setup with no thermostat.
Perhaps big improvements with WMO could be achieved by adding a stat and keeping the engine at 190F.

veggie
GM90 engines, Changfa's, Voltmaster Generators, Pellet Mills - www.energymachines.ca

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2011, 07:33:30 AM »
Veggie I posted a site of a fellow in New Zealand who seems to have done quite a bit of research with WVO and Listeriods and Changfa engines. The problems he found it the roids compression was low and the exhaust temp was also low. The Changfa maintained a 18/1 where the roids were around 16/1. Anyway he has it seems ton of hours and increasing the compression up close to 20/1 which has increased the exhaust temp and it seemed to improve the burning of the WVO. It only stands to reason if the fuel of either product was burned hotter and more efficient the by product from the burn might be more inclined to go out the exhaust and not set in the cylinder wall causing problems. I contacted his to see if he had any data with WMO. So your idea of keeping the engine at 190 should be a start of finding some of the solution. I wonder what how Bill S was controlling his temp and what his compression was in the beginning???? Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2011, 08:07:58 AM »
here are my operating parameters with a s195 idi changfa
burning 15/40 low emission diesel oil as fuel

the coolant temp is controlled and operates between 205 and 214 degree's F
the head temperature averages ~238 degree's F
the engine is 20 to 1 compression from the factory

the exhaust temperature as measured with an infrared non contact thermometer runs
at 640 degrees F at approx 2 inches out of the exhaust port at the outside of the first elbow (the hottest part)

the output from the genhead will maintain 7.5 kwatt resistive output, and also another
couple hundred watts for the belt drives, another 130watts for the coolant pump and fan, and approx another 100 watts for field excitation and starter battery charging via one of the twin 555 alternators, for a total of a bit over 8kwatts output.

the exhaust burns cleanly, with no smoke and a bit of rack left, the engine will maintain this steady state operation for an hour or as long as one wants to run the test.

the only failures i had were failed head gskts at this load level, however i have rectified that issue with aftermarket gaskets from gskts to go.

i have had the head off after such runs on wmo and found there to be no more carbon than there is after running straight pump diesel.

the engine will start on straight motor oil, however it does smoke for approx 30-45 seconds then clears right up,

the carbon residue i have found on the piston and in the prechamber (the changfa has a removable hot plug) is soft and easily removed with a thumbnail.

now i have not amassed a thousand hours of testing however, i am convinced that if i were to provide some form of water mist injection periodically or propane/natgas fumigation the soft carbon would be easily cleared before it had a chance to harden and be heated to the point of ash formation.

i have never found any ash after such a run on motor oil.

now we might prematurely conclude all sorts of things, probably be wrong more times than not making hasty conclusion, however
i do think there is evidence that motor oil can be burned successfully and without engine damage in a changfa and perhaps other engines under certain conditions.

i really believe that carbon removal is key, before it has a chance to harden under heat and constant pressure and be converted to ash. having higher compression ratios might help as would higher coolant temperatures.

btw the engine runs smoother makes less noise (noticeably less diesel knock), makes more power (approx 10%) and has improved BSFC (5% better) running on oil vs pump diesel.

all indications with this engine ran under these conditions is the use of wmo as fuel
looks promising, however it might be prudent to follow controlled decarbon by manual or gaseous fumigation or water mist injection.

another thing comes to mind, i have torn down many old gas engine's that were using massive amounts of lube oil, the kind that foul plugs badly and smoke like a freight train. i have also seen copious amounts of ash deposits (white caked up deposits) on spark plug electrodes/tips and in the combustion chambers. relatively large amount of ash and carbon buildup,,, and also have found the cylinders to be in remarkably good shape on some of these engines as well.

those engines that seem to maintain cylinder condition best are those with high nickel content castiron and those that do worst are those with low nickel content cast.

this might lead one to conclude that the ash deposits "if" abrasive, are much harder on
low nickel cast cylinders (cheaper engines) and it would appear the abrasive nature of the ash product is not hard enough to effect the harder nickel cast cylinders.

i think it is time to get my hands on some of the ash, and do some testing to see just how abrasive it really is, and what its effects are against low alloy cast iron vs high nickel content cast iron vs induction hardened liners.

i am going to go way out on a limb and place a bet,
my bet is the ash is not hard enough to touch the surface of a nickel iron block and even less so with an induction hardened liner.

failing that one, my next bet would be that the carbon left behind from using wmo as fuel is no where near hard enough to even touch a hard liner or nickel cast iron cylinder.

time to do some research and testing

place your bets boys!

:)

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

bschwartz

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2011, 09:04:24 AM »
My bet is that soon a post will follow telling you how wrong you are  ::)
-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2011, 09:29:51 AM »
Maybe this will be a productive day. I will have to wait to see since I got called in last night to work after working Thursday night and being awake all day Friday. I may just go to sleep. Hopefully there wont be 15 more pages to read through. DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2011, 09:47:01 AM »
Maybe this will be a productive day. I will have to wait to see since I got called in last night to work after working Thursday night and being awake all day Friday. I may just go to sleep. Hopefully there wont be 15 more pages to read through. DD

DD,

Just remember if no one posts on this forum then people will just go else where, so post some thing informative