Danger engine damage

[DRDEATH]

Spencer the guy from Africa runs his engines everyday 24 hrs a day. So I would submitt his facts actual. So if he happens to show up here I would say you and him would have something to share. BTW Bill was on the forum and I guess WMO has not scared him yet. He plans to use it in his 16/1. So we will continue on with his information. Mike DD

[BigGreen]

I totally agree with you Spencer.
The cost of everything involved to produce off-grid adds up. The initial cost of everything involved for me is well over two years worth of grid power cost. The fuel, maintenance and replacement costs doesn't make it cost effective at all for me. I don't have an unlimited supply of WMO to work with. Buying a bank of batteries every 8 years or so pretty much killed the idea for me. I would if I was forced to. Ppl operating in this mode are well off-grid and have no other option. And as Bob said, co-gen makes it move viable. I live where it is always hot, 73f today so I don't require the heating aspect.

Maybe a Lister isn't the best platform for this veture as well.

But it sounds as if you have already made that initial investment. Work the numbers and see if it falls in your favor. I wouldn't give up on WMO until I have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt it isn't cost effective.

[spencer1885]

Lets get this clear, my hobbies are mostly mechanical and stationary engine are included.
My Lister cs is not a toy I play with and post that one day or I think or I heard that ,it is doing a job 365 days per year.
So my posts are real life results not theory.
Cost is most important to every one and as my results have shown the engine suffers rapid wear reducing it's life to way less than a quarter and consequently massively pushing costs up.

[buickanddeere]

  Marine diesels, third world utilities  and  peaking power plants all burn heavy #4,#5 and #6 Bunker C fuel oil  in diesel engines. Using enough heat and pressure, motor oil too will spray into a mist with an injector.

[spencer1885]

Spencer the guy from Africa runs his engines everyday 24 hrs a day. So I would submitt his facts actual. So if he happens to show up here I would say you and him would have something to share. BTW Bill was on the forum and I guess WMO has not scared him yet. He plans to use it in his 16/1. So we will continue on with his information. Mike DD

 


DD,
24 hours a day, and did he say he had 5000 hour?,210 days then.
bob's 2 hours a day is no good to him then 

So far I smell a fish

No pictures  No post's from him  No youtube   No details apart from his sales pitch  No problems with coking injectors



   You say he lives in the bush so has not got a camera but hes got a computer

   5000 HOURS WOULD BE ABOUT 5000 LITRES OF WMO        WHERE'S THAT COMING FROM IN THE BUSH   






Spencer

[DRDEATH]

Spencer you are not the only person with ideas and information. Let other people be part of this without be sarcastic. Two post ago you mentioned your hobbies and. So hobbies and way of life are two different things. Don't get this post going backwords again. We all want discussion that will take us forward to better ways. David is from a completely different culture and respect that. He is not someone looking for credit for a major break through in the use of WMO it is his way of life. DD

[spencer1885]

Want's your point?

Bunker fuelled ship engines are being fazed out, to polluting and high maintenance
They are design to burn that fuel
Some have cylinders big enough to walk in which they do to clean out the crap
Can you imagine the size of the injectors which they have more than one to a cylinder

Apples and oranges
 

[DRDEATH]

Lets get this clear, my hobbies are mostly mechanical and stationary engine are included
Spencer this was you statement your own words...... hobbies are not a way of life. Hobbies are something you do because you enjoy it.
David is completly dependant on his system. It is not his HOBBY. Just remember that.

As for your last post it means nothing for people living the bush. I don't see where that came from

[spencer1885]

DD,
There will be lots of people reading posts on both forums and if they read from the beginning they can make there own minds up if they think WMO is a good idea.
My self a bill have not seemed to be able to convince a very small amount of people of the problems but one person turns up with what some want to hear and that's good for them , if WMO is to damaging to an engine then all of a sudden there plans are dashed.
Just like children not listening to there parents

[spencer1885]

Lets get this clear, my hobbies are mostly mechanical and stationary engine are included
Spencer this was you statement your own words...... hobbies are not a way of life. Hobbies are something you do because you enjoy it.
David is completly dependant on his system. It is not his HOBBY. Just remember that.

As for your last post it means nothing for people living the bush. I don't see where that came from

DD,
You missed the point, if this project is not viable it's gone
bob your self and a lot of others have or will have [ one day] toy engines, mines doing a job full stop.
You said he lived in the bush and had no pictures because he probably does not have a camera
The WMO you have not replied to my question where does 5000 litres of oil come from???

[guest18]

Spencer

from your last post

"The first thing to understand is you can not use WMO neat"

yes i can, i can burn any motor oil up to 15/40 in my changfa at 100%, no solvent
and no preheating of the fuel, i do have to start on diesel and warm up for a couple minutes though.

"Engine oils are not like veg oils which can have there viscosity reduce by heat"

that too is false, cold oil is very thick, get it hot and it will become much less so.

"Lubricating oils are design to resist heat and there viscosity is design to be stable so you can not reduce there viscosity to suitable levels with heat alone."

yes i could, but i don't need to heat the oil for use in the changfa

"So you must cut it with a solvent to make it suitable for the injector to spray."

no i do not have to reduce with solvent, although i might prefer to do so with pump diesel it is not necessary in the idi changfa.

"This is your first COST buying a solvent"

very true, no argument from me on this point, however the cost of the solvent/diesel
used to thin will also reduce the amount of ash and abrasives, which will have a positive effect on engine life, so that additional cost might be acceptable or even desirable.

"The next cost is the replacement rings, bore, piston and gaskets
365 days a year and 8 hours a day of running the generator means you need to get 2920 hours per year from our generator."

this is another area where we part ways, i cannot understand the need for operation of an engine/generator for that many hours per day across the whole year, i could make a very compelling argument for an average of 2 hours per day with a hybrid system that would compete well with grid power. for a total run time of less than 800hr/year

the cost of a changfa cylinder kit, big end brg, gskts for a 195 is less than 150 bucks retail, and less than 100 bucks if bought direct in quantity.

"You will need every year to replace 2 sets of rings 1 piston and a bore."

see above, under my suggested operational parameters, the replacement would be
closer to every 3.5 years and only if the changfa wears out as fast as the listeroid. we
have evidence to the contrary so the meantime before overhaul might well be 5 years or as many as 10 or more years operated accordingly.

"6 hp generator will run a modest house, so unless you can't get grid power the economics don't make sense to generate your own power."

this is true if all you are doing is generating electrical power, and your grid rates are reasonable, however this is not the case with cogen in cooler climates that have high grid power rates.

actually under the certain operating parameters one could generate electricity very competitively with the grid rates in cogen mode even if the rates are quite low, so long as there is a need and use for the recovered heat, but

the basic problem you have is the 6hp engine for a modest house, it would generally have to run long hours to cover the load requirements, and is not large enough to do both cover the loads and be able to recharge a battery bank at the same time.

it takes about 12hp to do both for a modest home in moderate climates for the majority of the year and do so efficiently averaging 2 hours per day run time.

here again the changfa has an advantage over the listeroid, the changfa can produce 10kw/hr/gallon (US) where the 6/1 will do well to do 8kw/hr/gallon (US)

we are now gettin into the weeds and likely would need to start another topic to explore this fully.

bob g

Spencer,

This is the way I see it. If you do not have a Changfa type engine like Bob G and others you cannot say that the engine will suffer a short life. I know that the Changfa type engines are made with much higher quality parts. I have been around both and I know for a fact that the S195 will run on straight WMO.

I think all of us are pretty much done with listening how bad WMO is for all engines. We cannot help that your engine did not last as long as you expected. So I think it is time for you to take a step back and re-read to what others wrote. So what if a Changfa only runs for  lets say 2000 hours on WMO. And the oil is free. How much do you think it will cost to install new sleave,piston, rings, gasket in a S195? The bottom line is the cost rebuilding is so little that I don't see a problem. But from what I read the S195 engines are putting on hours.
And about some of your last post. Let me make this very clear. Others here have much more experiance than you and I would beleve what they written on this topic more than your posts.

Also your real life results are with what? A Lister or Listeroid? My recomendation is do not run WMO in your engine and let others run what they want and end your desussions on your experiance with WMO.

Henry

[spencer1885]

Spencer you are not the only person with ideas and information. Let other people be part of this without be sarcastic. Two post ago you mentioned your hobbies and. So hobbies and way of life are two different things. Don't get this post going backwords again. We all want discussion that will take us forward to better ways. David is from a completely different culture and respect that. He is not someone looking for credit for a major break through in the use of WMO it is his way of life. DD

DD,
Lets hear from other WMO users ,that was my post on the subject some long time ago and apart from Bill no one was forthcoming.

[spencer1885]

Spencer

from your last post

"The first thing to understand is you can not use WMO neat"

yes i can, i can burn any motor oil up to 15/40 in my changfa at 100%, no solvent
and no preheating of the fuel, i do have to start on diesel and warm up for a couple minutes though.

"Engine oils are not like veg oils which can have there viscosity reduce by heat"

that too is false, cold oil is very thick, get it hot and it will become much less so.

"Lubricating oils are design to resist heat and there viscosity is design to be stable so you can not reduce there viscosity to suitable levels with heat alone."

yes i could, but i don't need to heat the oil for use in the changfa

"So you must cut it with a solvent to make it suitable for the injector to spray."

no i do not have to reduce with solvent, although i might prefer to do so with pump diesel it is not necessary in the idi changfa.

"This is your first COST buying a solvent"

very true, no argument from me on this point, however the cost of the solvent/diesel
used to thin will also reduce the amount of ash and abrasives, which will have a positive effect on engine life, so that additional cost might be acceptable or even desirable.

"The next cost is the replacement rings, bore, piston and gaskets
365 days a year and 8 hours a day of running the generator means you need to get 2920 hours per year from our generator."

this is another area where we part ways, i cannot understand the need for operation of an engine/generator for that many hours per day across the whole year, i could make a very compelling argument for an average of 2 hours per day with a hybrid system that would compete well with grid power. for a total run time of less than 800hr/year

the cost of a changfa cylinder kit, big end brg, gskts for a 195 is less than 150 bucks retail, and less than 100 bucks if bought direct in quantity.

"You will need every year to replace 2 sets of rings 1 piston and a bore."

see above, under my suggested operational parameters, the replacement would be
closer to every 3.5 years and only if the changfa wears out as fast as the listeroid. we
have evidence to the contrary so the meantime before overhaul might well be 5 years or as many as 10 or more years operated accordingly.

"6 hp generator will run a modest house, so unless you can't get grid power the economics don't make sense to generate your own power."

this is true if all you are doing is generating electrical power, and your grid rates are reasonable, however this is not the case with cogen in cooler climates that have high grid power rates.

actually under the certain operating parameters one could generate electricity very competitively with the grid rates in cogen mode even if the rates are quite low, so long as there is a need and use for the recovered heat, but

the basic problem you have is the 6hp engine for a modest house, it would generally have to run long hours to cover the load requirements, and is not large enough to do both cover the loads and be able to recharge a battery bank at the same time.

it takes about 12hp to do both for a modest home in moderate climates for the majority of the year and do so efficiently averaging 2 hours per day run time.

here again the changfa has an advantage over the listeroid, the changfa can produce 10kw/hr/gallon (US) where the 6/1 will do well to do 8kw/hr/gallon (US)

we are now gettin into the weeds and likely would need to start another topic to explore this fully.

bob g

Spencer,

This is the way I see it. If you do not have a Changfa type engine like Bob G and others you cannot say that the engine will suffer a short life. I know that the Changfa type engines are made with much higher quality parts. I have been around both and I know for a fact that the S195 will run on straight WMO.

I think all of us are pretty much done with listening how bad WMO is for all engines. We cannot help that your engine did not last as long as you expected. So I think it is time for you to take a step back and re-read to what others wrote. So what if a Changfa only runs for  lets say 2000 hours on WMO. And the oil is free. How much do you think it will cost to install new sleave,piston, rings, gasket in a S195? The bottom line is the cost rebuilding is so little that I don't see a problem. But from what I read the S195 engines are putting on hours.
And about your last post. Let me make this very clear. Others here have much more experiance than you and I would beleve what they written on this topic more than your posts.

Also your real life results are with what? A Lister or Listeroid? My recomendation is do not run WMO in your engine and let others run what they want and end your desussions on your experiance with WMO.

Henry

Henry,
No one on the two forums has had any thing to add part from theory
WMO experts have not come forth yet
It will run on straight WMO is a point less statement, have posted already aimed at bob who made the same statement,read it.
You have not understood the under laying fact that burnt WMO produces abrasive ash and will grind any engine it's not choosy.

[bschwartz]

And if no one else posts, my inbox will be less full of redundancy.........

[mobile_bob]

Spencer

if you would do a bit more reading and a lot less blowing out the same old line
you would find that i have done the analysis, including first cost of batteries, the depreciation of those batteries, the inverter first cost and depreciation and all the other
related bits and pieces necessary to build a hybrid system.

the bottom line is this, yes you can provide heat and power for less than the utility
if  you do your research and do it right, but

you cannot do it in a manner that would allow you to service all your loads on a whim as you do with grid power, it would require a certain level of scheduling
and load management.

you speak of your interest, hobby, and real life experiences with stationary engine's, i would suggest you might be better served to continue your education, and
read up on the experience of those that you debate with here and on other forums.

if you notice i have not argued with you about the use of motor oil as a fuel in an original lister, why?  because i have little little experience with them and even less interest.  i have made no secret of the reasons why either.

your use of the same old line, over and over again (goerblesqu'e) is not going to convince anyone, mainly because these two forum at least are populated with folks
with a higher than average level of critical thinking and analytical skills.

when that fails you revert to a type of rhetoric that clearly illustrates your inability to argue your point based on its merits. thinking that calling fellow members stupid or other negative terms is going to convert anyone is just very naive on your part.

lastly, when it comes to burning motor oil in a changfa, while i may not have massive hours on the clock, what i do have over most folks is quite a bit of solid
test data from my test cell.. i can tell you exactly how much power motor oil makes vs diesel fuel, the difference in exhaust temperatures, exact difference in BSFC and many other things,, i can also tell you that in a changfa it will burn cleanly "if" you
are running at near full load.

Spencer there is a thing that psychology bandies about,
when you think everyone else in the world is wrong and you are the only one right, it is time to take a hard look at yourself, because it it far more likely you are the one that is wrong.

not saying you are wrong, as it applies to an original lister and wmo, as applied the way you are doing it, but just saying the odds are not in your favor.

bob g