Danger engine damage

[BigGreen]

That's my stand. If we can get past the head knocking there is solid potential here to perform some serious first hand WMO research. Spencer has an unlimited supply, the desire (or need) to use it and has provided some crude performance baseline. So what if he didn't document to the nth degree what he was doing, this is still a data point. Actually a solid data point in the aspect that if you collect ??, filter it like ??, and burn it like ?? this is what happens. Fill in the blanks and that is baseline.
From there you either address muliple parameters (the wiser move to manage cost of liners and rings) or change a single parameter, closely monitor and document operating characteristics and note outcome.
Such parameters would be:
Fuelstock >> What EXACTLY is it and how can it be improved
Filtering >> How EXACTLY is it done and how can it be improved
Temp and Load >> Where should this be and can it be changed

Measure and document, document, document
Pull the head and inspect on a defined interval. Don't clean unless required and document (up for discussion). Do this for a defined period, analyse results, change a parameter, and repeat.After a period of time and experimentation things should start falling together. You may not like the results but you will know. You may realize that you would have to process it something like Rbodell or another method to make it pratical, but you will know...
 
Don't give up on the project just because you don't agree with baseline results. Baseline is your starting point, you have it, use it, work it.
I wished I was in your shoes, WMO was a key selling point on buying a roid but I never run mine and it has taken me 7 years to collect ~150 gal's of known stock. I know exactly what oil I have, Valvoline 5W-20 and 10W-40, segregated and labeled, family oil changes.

OK, can I crawl back under my rock now?

 

[DRDEATH]

Sorry the rock went BYE BYE. You are here too stay. LOL  Thanks for coming back. Mike DD

[DRDEATH]

I was pointed to a site that addressed WVO and some of the problems this person has over come with it. I am not sure but if I remember correctly Spencer and Bill both reported loss of compression before the engines shot craps. It might be possible that some of the problems this guy has over come might be helpful in the research for finding the solution with WMO. Here is the site http://www.veglisteroidnz.co.nz/veglisteroidnz/index.html Hope I did that right. It is worth a look from some members that are more of an expert than me. If it is of no value my mistake. Mike

[spencer1885]

spencer

why is his argument weaker than yours?

why is his post a spoof?

how do we know you are not a spoof?

seems to me if we have to accept you on face value, then we also have
to accept the other fellow on face value

as for the changfa, mine at least has an induction hardened liner, and it is hard
as the hubs of hell.

maybe the changfa can tolerate wmo better than a lister? 

surely you aren't saying that is an impossibility?  are you?

i suspect your mind is made up and don't confuse things with the facts?

just because you don't like the results or observations of another does not make
your position correct and his wrong.

time to "man up"  and at least accept the possibility that there might well be another explanation for what you have observed.

what do you say?

Why do I think the poster is a fraud? - I will tell you.

This was hjs very first post, and he had never posted all the time he has been a member.
Newbies don't normally start their first post with snide remarks.
According to him Listeroids and GENUINE LISTERS are no good and no good on WMO and Chinese made Changfa engines are much better quality and better at running on WMO.
He goes on to say he once used unfiltered WMO and it gummed, that's not a term that any one with experience of WMO is going to use as it is not a term that you could possibly use to describe any of the possible problems you can get with WMO
He sounds like a Changfa sales man who says that the bore is hardened and also the rings, any one with engineering experience will tell you you can't have two hard surfaces in a cylinder as you will not get a seal.

Now if you want to check me out look in the gallery on this forum under the name of spencer and you will see some of my projects inc waste oil heaters and boilers.

If you go to Youtube and type in Lister cs wmo, you will find my videos under the user name of Taliespencer.
The Lister cs in the video is the very same one that I have based all my posts on.
I have not just appeared and have had real life experience on the subject.

Spencer

[t19]

Gentlemen.

Lets keep to the topic at hand.  Is WMO any good for  burning. 

If someone has tried it and found issues, lets look at the issues not the poster
If someone is posting they have no issues, lets find out what it is they did.

The forum is for everyone to learn.

[spencer1885]

Hi t19,

Problem is I have posted most of my posts on the wrong forum
Peeps will have to go to the other forum and read the whole story.
I like this subject and so it seems do others
If peeps google , ash from lub oils , waste oil burners and maintenance, ring and bore wear from engines burning lub oil caused by the additives, they can see the facts for them selves and make there own minds up.

Spencer

[DRDEATH]

Spencer I have actually exchanged emails with David and I find his story and history quite intresting. He has shared that he would like to continue to post but he said he does not care for drama and is glad it has stopped on the other forum. I included information in my email to him about this forum. So I would hope he will share some of his experience for people over here.
He lives in the bush miles for any other town. He said there was a bush plane that comes to their area 2 times a week. So I would guess he would have tested many engines just to survive. They farm, which I am not sure what his idea of farming to your idea or even my idea would be. They carry firearms for protection from wild animals which I would rather guess in either of our countries our farmers do not have to do.

As for the Changfa it seems the quality of them has made them last longer than the listeriods. I could believe that when you see documentaries on China and the little Changfa is powering anything you could imagine. I would guess for fuel some of those people put just about anything in they can find, and as for the sump I could only imagine. So I guess I believe him. For the lack of pictures I would guess cameras are rare. Mike DD

[mobile_bob]

yes folks will make their own determination as to the value of burning waste motor oil
based on all factors, not just a single one as suggested.

that has always been the point spencer, this is nothing personal against you or your observations, it is just that some if not the majority of those that burn waste motor oil for fuel in an engine will consider all factors and then decide whether to use it or not.

you have made some rather blunt statements that would leave one to conclude that all oils are equally bad, all engines will suffer the same damage or at the same rate, and you seem unwilling to at least look into what it might take to reduce the problem or any other factors that might be as responsible, nearly as responsible or maybe even more responsible for your wear problems.

in my opinion you have taken a very narrow view, and perhaps it is warranted because  you used a genuine lister that you are passionate about. perhaps you view is more toward the collector engine side of the spectrum than the work engine side of the spectrum?  i suspect it is the former and there is nothing wrong with that "if" that is where you are inclined.

just as some folks buy a 1ton pickup for cruising the interstate, or back and forth
from the grocery store, there are those that buy the same pickup and take it to the rock quarry and work the living crap out of it.  certainly the pickup in the rock pit is going to last but a fraction of the time that the grocery getter will get.

are we to conclude that "danger rocks will destroy your pickup"?

using your logic, yes!

however from the owner that needs to work in the rock pile, the statement is of no concern!  he expects the pickup to last long enough to make economic sense once all things are factored in. and if it works at as so, he is happy and has made money.

all i and others have ever suggested is this, perhaps 1500 hours is enough lifespan before an overhaul, "if" you have access to free or nearly so waste oil for fuel?
that is if you factor in what the diesel fuel costs would have been over those 1500hours of operation. under certain conditions and at some price point burning motor oil even if it wears out the cylinder kit, works out to be economically preferrable to buying pump diesel.

the other point that seems to escape you is this, i, among others only suggest that perhaps more work needs to be done to see if there is anyway of improving the problem and extending the time before overhaul? again an economic analysis would be in order, because it would only make sense to process the oil if the extension in lifespan provided enough offset in dollars to pay for the treatment of the oil

in other words, it would make no sense to treat the oil if it cost 1000 dollars and only increased the engine lifespan 500 hour or so, however it might make lots of sense to do so if it only cost 100 dollars and extended the lifespan of the engine 1000hours or more?

as for the fellow from africa, with the changfa
he is a bonofide member, we have checked out his ip and found him to originate
where he claims, and again i have no reason to discount what he reports.

from personal experience with the s195 changfa, yes the liners are induction hardened, however the rings appear to be cast iron. although i have not attempt
to break one to determine this is for sure as i have not had one wear out or fail yet.

hopefully this makes sense to you on some level, if not please let me know what you are unclear on and i will try again.

bob g

[spencer1885]

bob,
I understand very well and I know good basic engineering facts.
Do you understand from reading those posts, some of his statements don't hold water.
You and some other people now seem to except my findings about abrasive wear from WMO but not once have you acknowledged my findings.
If you think it's caused by the ash or not no one has posted such comprehensive data on WMO use.
Lots of posts backing up my results from abrasive ash which you seem to forget to mention.

Spencer

[mobile_bob]

let me see if i can try again, perhaps there is some cultural barriers
or other factor that makes communicating my point to you difficult if not impossible.

(and yes i accept the deficiency might be all mine.)

for the sake of discussion i will accept that waste motor oil produces ash when burned

and for the sake of discussion lets assume it is abrasive

and lets assume that a typical listeroid will only run to 1500hours before it has worn out a cylinder kit.

lets also assume there are no other factors involved

now lets do a cost analysis, free waste motor oil as fuel vs pump diesel
on a overall cost basis.

in this analysis, it doesn't matter to me, and i suspect anyone else whether or not burning waste motor oil produces copious amounts of micro level industrial diamonds which combine with unburnt fuel and oil to make the worlds finest grinding compound. it doesn't matter if the engine is made from the finest unobtanium materials known to man. the bottom line is the engine only runs to 1500hours, and when we do a cost based analysis it still makes sense to use the product as a fuel.

so the statement "danger wmo will damage your engine"  really is of no concern to anyone other than a collector of a rare engine!  anyone that is working their engine to produce something of value will conclude that your statement does not apply.

it all depends on what the user needs to get done!

certainly nitromethane will damage an engine, however without its use its impossible to win  a heat in top fuel, writing a statement against its use on a forum
where top fuel guys hang out would likely get you laughed out of the place.

all the above does not account for other possible explanations for the problems you have encountered, those other possible factors are lost on no one but you spencer.

bob g

[spencer1885]

bob,
The first thing to understand is you can not use WMO neat
Engine oils are not like veg oils which can have there viscosity reduce by heat
Lubricating oils are design to resist heat and there viscosity is design to be stable so you can not reduce there viscosity to suitable levels with heat alone.
So you must cut it with a solvent to make it suitable for the injector to spray.
This is your first COST buying a solvent
The next cost is the replacement rings, bore, piston and gaskets
365 days a year and 8 hours a day of running the generator means you need to get 2920 hours per year from our generator.
You will need every year to replace 2 sets of rings 1 piston and a bore.
6 hp generator will run a modest house, so unless you can't get grid power the economics don't make sense to generate your own power.


Spencer

[mobile_bob]

Spencer

from your last post

"The first thing to understand is you can not use WMO neat"

yes i can, i can burn any motor oil up to 15/40 in my changfa at 100%, no solvent
and no preheating of the fuel, i do have to start on diesel and warm up for a couple minutes though.

"Engine oils are not like veg oils which can have there viscosity reduce by heat"

that too is false, cold oil is very thick, get it hot and it will become much less so.

"Lubricating oils are design to resist heat and there viscosity is design to be stable so you can not reduce there viscosity to suitable levels with heat alone."

yes i could, but i don't need to heat the oil for use in the changfa

"So you must cut it with a solvent to make it suitable for the injector to spray."

no i do not have to reduce with solvent, although i might prefer to do so with pump diesel it is not necessary in the idi changfa.

"This is your first COST buying a solvent"

very true, no argument from me on this point, however the cost of the solvent/diesel
used to thin will also reduce the amount of ash and abrasives, which will have a positive effect on engine life, so that additional cost might be acceptable or even desirable.

"The next cost is the replacement rings, bore, piston and gaskets
365 days a year and 8 hours a day of running the generator means you need to get 2920 hours per year from our generator."

this is another area where we part ways, i cannot understand the need for operation of an engine/generator for that many hours per day across the whole year, i could make a very compelling argument for an average of 2 hours per day with a hybrid system that would compete well with grid power. for a total run time of less than 800hr/year

the cost of a changfa cylinder kit, big end brg, gskts for a 195 is less than 150 bucks retail, and less than 100 bucks if bought direct in quantity.

"You will need every year to replace 2 sets of rings 1 piston and a bore."

see above, under my suggested operational parameters, the replacement would be
closer to every 3.5 years and only if the changfa wears out as fast as the listeroid. we
have evidence to the contrary so the meantime before overhaul might well be 5 years or as many as 10 or more years operated accordingly.

"6 hp generator will run a modest house, so unless you can't get grid power the economics don't make sense to generate your own power."

this is true if all you are doing is generating electrical power, and your grid rates are reasonable, however this is not the case with cogen in cooler climates that have high grid power rates.

actually under the certain operating parameters one could generate electricity very competitively with the grid rates in cogen mode even if the rates are quite low, so long as there is a need and use for the recovered heat, but

the basic problem you have is the 6hp engine for a modest house, it would generally have to run long hours to cover the load requirements, and is not large enough to do both cover the loads and be able to recharge a battery bank at the same time.

it takes about 12hp to do both for a modest home in moderate climates for the majority of the year and do so efficiently averaging 2 hours per day run time.

here again the changfa has an advantage over the listeroid, the changfa can produce 10kw/hr/gallon (US) where the 6/1 will do well to do 8kw/hr/gallon (US)

we are now gettin into the weeds and likely would need to start another topic to explore this fully.

bob g

[mobile_bob]

Spencer

it occurs to me that maybe you think i have summarily dismissed your observation
of motor oil when burnt produces abrasive ash?

if this is the case, let me clear the air a bit...

i am not dismissing your findings, what i am however doing is trying to quantify
the problem, find solution to reduce if not eliminate the problem, all the while trying to keep an eye on what is bottom line most important to me,, that is the "bottom line"

i am not married to any engine, i look at an engine as only something that does something that i cannot do in a simpler or more cost effective way. to that end if it
gets used up in the process, well that is all part of the cost of doing what needs to be done.

now having said that, i too have an interest in collectible and interesting things, some of which are engine's.  if i were to be so lucky as to come up with a rare engine (either rare because of scarcity or rare because it is in as new condition)
i like you would be very concerned with burning anything that might shorten its life
or damage it,,, however i likely would not be asking it to do any real work either.

so, i suppose where you are correct in your position and statement is when it is directed toward those that are more interested in their engine's from a collectible viewpoint than would be the case for those with a work engine viewpoint.

in my opinion, this forum as well as microcogen's forum are populated with a much higher density of work engine owners as opposed to collector engine owners.
probably by a 10 to 1 or greater margin,

therein is probably the genesis of the problem with trying to communicate your message, the message is of little concern to those that are working their engine's and faced with either buying pump diesel or fueling it with wmo.

this debate would be no different if it were "frog farts" rather than waste motor oil.
believe me if someone comes up with a way to collect frog farts in sufficient quantities to run the work engine's the debate would certainly shift away from wmo.

all this likely is of no consequence in the end anyway, it is likely that with higher oil prices that these waste oil streams will go the way of waste veggie oil, where all of the larger producers will be under contract with a recycler or mandated by law to
dispose only through a government approved recycler making it impossible to get
any significant amount of wmo anyway.

back in the early 90's "saftykleen" (sp) corp. lobbied congress and were almost successful in getting waste oil reclassified as toxic waste, they wanted it reclassified because they already had an infrastructure setup to pickup solvents from shops and this would have been a huge boon to them.  had they been successful we wouldn't be having this discussion now, as even talking about burning waste motor oil in an engine would probably be a felony.

bottom line, your report re waste motor oil >ash>abrasive>engine damage, might have merit on some level, what the quantity might be and how it computes into the cost/benefit analysis is where the rubber meet the road, most especially when used in work engine's.

bob g

[BigGreen]

6 hp generator will run a modest house, so unless you can't get grid power the economics don't make sense to generate your own power.

100% agreed, you can not beat the power company by creating cheaper energy with a diesel engine unless everything required is free. If this is your plan give up now. Even cutting well filtered WMO 50/50 with pump diesel will shorten the engine life and when I say engine life I mean liner and rings. You may get to or better than 2000 hr but the issue will still be there. Cutting with RUG will start beating up your big end bearing. It can be predetinating without you even knowing it. Ppl do it but I have been adviced against it.
You can try to prove different theories by experimentation to extend engine life but this is experimenting, having fun with a project, not trying to beat the grid financially. In doing so you may eventually get there but probably not. I thought you were an off-gridder Spencer, sorry.

Dave

[spencer1885]

bob and Dave,
I am not an engine collector as you would have seen from my pictures, all my equipment is as it came,most of it looks like junk, but I have never been interested I the appearance of my stuff but it's all mechanically in tip top condition.
My Lister is a working engine as you would have seen and has to earn it's keep.
You might think 8 hours a day is to many hours of run time but you have not mention the massive cost of a battery bank and costly inverter needed to only run a generator for only 2 hours per day.
bob you say your engines runs fine on straight WMO but you don't have the hours and daily use to post factual data, putting in some WMO and saying your engine runs is meaning less, do it every day and clock up some hours then post it is possible to do.