Author Topic: Danger engine damage  (Read 69541 times)

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #135 on: January 29, 2011, 11:40:52 PM »
You know Spencer the ash on the exhaust is not a problem. As long as it blows all of it out it wont hurt a thing. There was a guy in CO who had a 24/2 roid with a blower. He claimed 20 K of pleasing wonderful power. Since a blower is forcing air into the cylinders I wonder if it would be enough to force all of the nasties out each time? What do you think?? Beside what could be more COOL than a hopped up Lister. Put a arm on the Lt side of the motor and tell people it is a suicide clutch. I need to go back to bed. BUT I CANT. Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

listeroil

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #136 on: January 30, 2011, 12:02:00 AM »
List

It is economical to run on free WMO even including the cost of rebuilding the engine every  1500 hrs.

Grid calculation
3 kw for 8 hrs a day = 24 kw hrs.
24 kw hrs  x  365  =  8760 kw hrs per year.
8760 kw hrs  x  10p per unit  UK grid  electric price  =  £875 per year.

Red Diesel calculation
3 kw per hour =  1.7 litres red diesel per hour  @ £0. 70p per litre =  £1.19p  per hour
2920 hours run per year  @  £1.19p per hour  =  £3474.80p per year

WVO calculation (based on the price I pay for WVO)
3kw per hour = 1.7 litres WVO  @ 0.15p per litre  =  £0 255 per hour.
2920 hours run per year  @  £0.255p per hour = £744.60p per year.

Free WMO calculation
3kw per hour  =  1.7 litres WMO  @  0.0p per litre =  £0.0per hour
2920 hours run per year @ £0.00p per hour  =  £0.00 per year plus two very expensive? top end rebuilds at £250 each  =  £500 per year.

Grid price                 £875
Red diesel price        £3474
WVO price               £744
Free WMO price       £500

Mick

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2011, 01:23:16 AM »
Listeroil I am not a math person. When the letters and numbers are required to figure out something I just shake my head. When I was going to school I could figure out everything I ever needed to know about giving medications and running drips and never learned algebra. I am not sure what the fuel consumption of a VA SOM would be. I also will have a CE that is going to be running the majority of the power. The VA will only be there when the CE is turned off. So I give .50/gal for WMO. Care to give me you predictions on this. Thank you, Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #138 on: January 30, 2011, 02:00:54 AM »
Mick

your point illustrates mathematically what i was trying to get across all along

there might be acceptable wear even if on first blush it seems crazy.

it all comes down to dollars and cents, or pounds and pence, or dog teeth and coconuts.
what works out to save you monetarily wins the discussion, except in such cases
as those where the engine is a rare example or some collectible that is hard to get parts for.

pristine NOS listers might fit the category of those collectible engine's one might want to treat very well and fuel with only approved fuels, however the listeroids, changfa's and similar engines really don't fit the collectible type, as most folks look
at them as simply a means to an end,, a tool if you will.

you analysis make excellent sense to me, as it should to most everyone here.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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mobile_bob

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #139 on: January 30, 2011, 02:15:13 AM »
Spencer

sorry it took so long to get back, had to work today and when i got home i had to
take a time out and let the back/hips/leg pain subside

anyway, as to your white powder residue, it may well be ash, and it may well have originated in the cylinder, i am not sure.

i have seen that stuff formed in many diesel engines out in the exhaust tract, engines that go on to run for many 10's of thousands of miles, and when the engine is taken down for repair, the cylinders are rarely ever found to be worn out, or have even a ring ridge.

i can only speculate as to what might be the mechanism behind the phenomena

it might be that the engine's i have seen with this white power residue all have induction hardened liners, high silicon content aluminum pistons, stainless keystone rings and turbo chargers with very large cam overlaps that send huge amounts of air during crossover out the exhaust.  under such conditions it might be that the black carbon is heated to such a point, fed with sufficient air from overlap to actually burn secondarily in the exhaust manifold and form the white ash outside the cylinder itself.

there is so many factors that might have minimal, moderate, or significant effect on the formation of the white ash, where it is formed, and how an engine might tolerate the effects of the ash. 

i am not sure we are ever going to determine what the root cause(s) are, much less what can be done about them unless we know what they are.

so far we have two examples of lister style engine's having worn out with the use of waste motor oil in about 1700 hours, and one listeroid (rbodell) that has a similar amount of run time but no apparent problems, a changfa that seems to be doing well at 5k hours and counting and maybe a few others that haven't reported yet.

i agree this is something we ought to be concerned about, and certainly something we should investigate further to see what we might find as the root cause, secondary causes and what if anything might mitigate the problem.

at this point it would appear that maybe treatment and filtering the oil, diluting it with diesel/rug/kerosene might have a significant effect on the outcome as rbodell has related to us.

jury is still out on this one, and it might be for sometime to come.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Rom

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #140 on: January 30, 2011, 03:47:46 AM »
Well being from the Bahamas and not having access to any sort of induction hardening shop (if you can even send the indian liners in to a shop and have that done) and if I had an original Lister, of which there are quite a few here, I would refit it with a cylinder block with liner and a new indian head to burn waste oils. They arent making these engines anymore, and I would hate to grind one of those fabled chrome bores to iron dust.

Far as I can see, the 5th stud is redundant in the grand scheme of things. The oids seem to run just peachy with most of them having 4 head bolts. IF the bolts on a RA Lister line up to fit an indian cylinder block, the money outlay may be a bit expensive to begin with, for a new head and block, spare liners and piston/rings, BUT should be much cheaper in the long run because it would save on having a professional bore and sleeve an original block, and the resleeving thereafter.

I definately couldnt afford to have that process done here. Most looking for that kind of repair, would wait til someone was doing a boat delivery to the states, then wait for someone else to bring it back on the next boat coming in, which could be months. OR pay export duties on the parts to be repaired, and import duties on the part and the cost of the repairs. Yes you can technically avoid the export duties by registering the parts with customs, but they make that difficult as hell too. Same kinda procedure for turbos and other expensive rebuildable mechanical parts. Course the smaller parts we would pay 500 - 600$ to fly to the states with the part, have it repaired and come back.

Rom

listeroil

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #141 on: January 30, 2011, 04:12:41 PM »
DD

Is this what you require?

6/1 engine

Full  load = 0.284 litres per BHP per hour
3/4 l oad = 0.300 litres per BHP per hour
1/2 load  = 0.347 litres per BHP per hour

CE engine

Full load = 0.274 litres per BHP per hour
3/4 load = 0.284 litres per BHP per hour
1/2 load = 0.330 litres per BHP per hour

I ve just found the above figures at Peter Forbes site http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/ and they are from genuine Lister prints.

In my 1960 SOM brochure it states

Fuel consumption on full load   lb/bhp/hr
6hp           6/1       =              0.50
8hp           8/1       =              0.50
7.5hp         VA       =              0.45
I find it strange that the VA engine seems to use a bit less fuel than the 8/1 I would have thought it would use more because of the fan.

Mick


spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #142 on: January 30, 2011, 04:13:23 PM »
I have uploaded a video onto Youtube today speaking about my findings when burning wmo in my Lister cs generator.

Link below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjQAA8F5rM

Cheers

Apogee

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #143 on: January 30, 2011, 06:56:17 PM »
Spencer,

Very interesting findings in your video.

Simply amazing the ash content.

Definitely would tend to act like an abrasive.

Much to think about!

Wow...

Thanks,

Steve

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #144 on: January 30, 2011, 07:18:34 PM »
Spencer,

Very interesting findings in your video.

Simply amazing the ash content.

Definitely would tend to act like an abrasive.

Much to think about!

Wow...

Thanks,

Steve
 



Hi Steve,
I am glad you have taken the time to look at the video.
I was also truly shocked at the sheer volume of the ash and it's no wonder my engine has suffered such extreme bore and ring wear in a short time.
Just the large amount of volume is  amazing.
I have now stopped my generator project and see no future in carrying on with it.

Cheers
Spencer

Apogee

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #145 on: January 30, 2011, 07:29:00 PM »
Spencer,

Check out the links to the vids of the gent who distills diesel from WMO that I just posted.  Interesting approach that might solve the problem.

http://lister-engine.com/lef/index.php?topic=5628.0

Enjoy,

Steve

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #146 on: January 30, 2011, 07:58:41 PM »
Spencer,

Check out the links to the vids of the gent who distills diesel from WMO that I just posted.  Interesting approach that might solve the problem.

http://lister-engine.com/lef/index.php?topic=5628.0

Enjoy,

Steve

Steve,

I have had a look ,thanks.
I have seen the videos before but I did not think I was going to encounter the problems I have found so did not consider it necessary and so disregarded it.
I did wonder if I could also produce the 9 litres per day every day that I need.
This idea was mention to me on the other forum and I really started to consider it and got quite excited. ;D
Then another credible member posted that the additives will also vaporise with the oil as well, then I suddenly realised that my vaporising pan WMO heater works on the same principle and all above the vaporising pan is masses of white ash which must have also vaporised with the oil. :'(   

Spencer

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2011, 04:31:07 AM »
Spencer I tried to look at the video but our wifi at work is so slow you get about 2 words out then it pauses for about 5 or 6 seconds. You almost forget what you hear. I did notice a large bowl of powder. I wonder if it would have a street value. Just kidding. Im sure the UK has no drug problem over there. I am pretty sure WMO will not go into my VA since it is rare and not easy to rebuild. If I come up with enough spare parts I might still run in the CE since it is easier to rebuild. I am still looking forward to see where the oil washing post goes. It would be nice if that resolved. Thanks for your work. Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #148 on: January 31, 2011, 08:55:12 AM »
Spencer I tried to look at the video but our wifi at work is so slow you get about 2 words out then it pauses for about 5 or 6 seconds. You almost forget what you hear. I did notice a large bowl of powder. I wonder if it would have a street value. Just kidding. Im sure the UK has no drug problem over there. I am pretty sure WMO will not go into my VA since it is rare and not easy to rebuild. If I come up with enough spare parts I might still run in the CE since it is easier to rebuild. I am still looking forward to see where the oil washing post goes. It would be nice if that resolved. Thanks for your work. Mike DD


DD,
 
Thanks for taking the time to look at the video  :)   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjQAA8F5rM
When you are able to watch it fully you might change your mined about putting WMO any where near your engines fuel system  :o
This was the final nail in the coffin as the shear volume of ash is horrifying and feeding an engine a constant diet of that makes no sense.  :'(
I have pm mobile bob and asked for his comments on my new video but so far he's been very quiet.  ;D

Cheers
Spencer

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #149 on: January 31, 2011, 01:12:45 PM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbjQAA8F5rM

Still no reply from mobile bob,
Well I suppose he was one of the main people disregarding my findings and as the evidence mounted to support my results he has gone very quiet  ;D

Spencer