Author Topic: Danger engine damage  (Read 69666 times)

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2011, 12:45:48 PM »
I will have to look at it later. I am still at work and I hope in less than 30 minutes I will be home asleep.
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spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2011, 12:52:29 PM »
DD,
At least the CE has liners so if you could get some replacements then you can change if needed
Are you sure your Petter is a genuine Petter and not an Indian copy? as I don't recall Petter making an engine with two flywheels in air cooled
I know a man local to me who has a CE and a CD for sale cheaply, there a bit rusty but not seized

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #122 on: January 29, 2011, 01:26:26 PM »
Spencer when I got home I went ahead and looked it up. It was the SOM correct. It looked pretty good. I cant wait to get mine. As for the CE and CD what is cheap. I am pretty taped out but parts for these critters are hard to find. I hope when you do your next video you get a little more light. Or maybe it was just my eyes. Please check on the engines before someone else get them. Thanks
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spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #123 on: January 29, 2011, 01:45:35 PM »
Spencer when I got home I went ahead and looked it up. It was the SOM correct. It looked pretty good. I cant wait to get mine. As for the CE and CD what is cheap. I am pretty taped out but parts for these critters are hard to find. I hope when you do your next video you get a little more light. Or maybe it was just my eyes. Please check on the engines before someone else get them. Thanks

DD,
But did you check out my other vid's ,you must click on the vid called Lister cs 6/1 som part 2 and you will see clearly the white ash.
As for the CD, CE there of no interest to me but I can put you I contact with the guy.

billswan

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #124 on: January 29, 2011, 02:52:30 PM »
Veggie I posted a site of a fellow in New Zealand who seems to have done quite a bit of research with WVO and Listeriods and Changfa engines. The problems he found it the roids compression was low and the exhaust temp was also low. The Changfa maintained a 18/1 where the roids were around 16/1. Anyway he has it seems ton of hours and increasing the compression up close to 20/1 which has increased the exhaust temp and it seemed to improve the burning of the WVO. It only stands to reason if the fuel of either product was burned hotter and more efficient the by product from the burn might be more inclined to go out the exhaust and not set in the cylinder wall causing problems. I contacted his to see if he had any data with WMO. So your idea of keeping the engine at 190 should be a start of finding some of the solution. I wonder what how Bill S was controlling his temp and what his compression was in the beginning???? Mike DD

DD + forum

The 10/1 used a grundfos pump and a thermostat set at 205 degrees F there is a bypass so the coolant is circulating until thermo opens . even after thermo opens the bypass which is a 3/8 copper line stays very hot and is wrapped around the WMO filter for pre heat of the fuel.

I followed the advise of the fellow in New Zealand and when i was cleaning up the 10/1 I ran the compression up by removing ALL the base gaskets to bring the piston as close to the head as possible. Now I had the CC's of the precup figured but I must apologize as my memory is not as good as I thought it was and I never dreamed I would need the info down the road so I never wrote the final compression ratio down I kick myself almost every other day as I would like to be able to post it accurately but the best I can do is a faint memory of the number being somewhere in the 18 to 1 but not quite  up to 19 to 1. One warning to anyone reading this there is piston valve interference when pulling the stunt I just wrote about so builders beware that has to be addressed with care.

In the beginning I believe the combustion was very good but as I have posted many times I believe the low grade Indian parts really cut the life of the engine.

I will agree with Spencer that the wmo is probably turning into something that is wearing out the cylinder faster than I think it should have.

But I am sure not going to give up on wmo quite yet the 16/1 has somewhat better parts but I am thinking it will not survive either but am going to give it another try hope to have it thumping in the next 12 hours. Give it a day on pump diesel and then introduce it to wmo.

May be I will try some sort of washing process like cognos posted but not to sure how to deal with the waste so won't be diving into that real soon maybe in a year.

The 10/1 ran at varying speeds as low as 910 up to 990 rpm depending on the amount of heat I was trying to create. The gen ran between about 3000 watts up to 3900 watts and the cycles varied but the heating element was the only load so no problem there. The exhaust temp was always in the range of 580 to 700 F at about an inch past the cast iron  exhaust connector. Mostly in about the 620 f range. I believe as the injector fouled and the rack opened to maintain output the smoke signal of the exhaust went up the fuel consumption went up and the exhaust temps went up. These are observations from the more so end of the life of the 10/1 and not so much the first 700 hours sorry again about not writing these things down as I never thought the engines life would be so short. I was thinking more so the engine would last 5000 hours before any serious repairs would be needed. Little did I know it would wear down this quickly.

Well off to get a longer belt for the 16/1.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

dieselgman

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #125 on: January 29, 2011, 03:17:17 PM »
We have sometimes used water injection to clean out dirty Lister engines... however, there is a trick involved - full load and full temperature! Otherwise you can suffer from oil contamination and cause damage to bearings etc.. A water mist is fine as long as it is completely steaming off in the exhaust and with most of the Listers you must work it pretty hard to get the cylinder temps high enough to do the trick. I am sure this is more problematic on the water cooled CS than many of the air-cooled models.

dieselgman
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Ford Powerstroke, Caterpillar 3304, Cummins M11, Too many Listers to count...

bschwartz

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #126 on: January 29, 2011, 03:22:45 PM »
Bill, from your experience, would you suggest running at a higher compression for WVO as well.
That would be fairly easy for me, as my 6/1 shipped with the plug instead of a changeover valve, but I ended up ordering one from CMD.
Raising the compression would simply be a matter of removing the plug, and putting in the valve and keeping is screwed in during running.

Thoughts?
-Brett

1982 300SD, 1995 Suburban 6.5, 1994 F250, R170, Metro 6/ sold :( , Witte CD-12 ..... What else can I run on WVO?

Tijean

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #127 on: January 29, 2011, 03:56:15 PM »
Billswan could it be a possibility that as wear stated to further reduce compression ratio things really start to snowball downhill. Perhaps throwing in a set of rings at a thousand hours would head off a lot of wear. I found the liner on my 10-1 to be very hard as I chose to do a bit of machining on it rather than the cyl. casting. I could not fault fit or finish of the liner but of course no real measurement of hardness.
The other wear engine we are wrapped around the axle of apparently started out with a used cylinder in "good" condition.

If the wear is not showing up on valve guides, seats and valve faces, and is not migrating down to accellerate wear in the bearings it would be a relatively quick swap of parts if you had them pre fitted so as not have to do shim calculations.

Re the compression boost by changing the cup shape of the changeover parts: I made a new plug to contain my glow plug but did not attempt to do anything but maintain the volume. I did not CC things either so cannot tell you how much you could gain by removing all the concave shape. Hindsight now makes me wish I had kept some notes as my memory is about as good as a three year old with hiccups!
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #128 on: January 29, 2011, 06:39:47 PM »
Brett and Bill there is a post under WVO from a guy in NZ. I'm not sure if I put it in here. He seems very he has spent numerous hours with pictures and specs. His main information is for WVO. Is this the same fellow you were speaking about. if so I guess I hadn't found the Holy Grail. DAM. Anyway look and see just for the heck of it. Mike DD    back to bed.  DD
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DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #129 on: January 29, 2011, 07:05:52 PM »
Spencer I watched both videos twice. I have to say it is a very nice system. First what is the second motor hooked. Could not tell if it was electric or a pump? Next do you feel the engine was running hot enough? there is a guy in NZ that has has some pretty extensive research with WVO and I have emailed to see if he has experimented with WMO and his findings are run the compression high and run the engine hot. I noticed you were able to swipe you finger across the exhaust less than 12 inches from the engine. I also noted you water was 160. I wonder what if any would change if you maintained 190* water and I would think the exhaust should be so hot you could even think about even touch it. It is a nice video. Mike DD
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billswan

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #130 on: January 29, 2011, 07:44:48 PM »
Bill, from your experience, would you suggest running at a higher compression for WVO as well.
That would be fairly easy for me, as my 6/1 shipped with the plug instead of a changeover valve, but I ended up ordering one from CMD.
Raising the compression would simply be a matter of removing the plug, and putting in the valve and keeping is screwed in during running.

Thoughts?

Bschwartz

I believe that a change over valve will only lower the compression from where it is now if screwed out and then screwing it in will put it back to about where it is now.
I believe spencer can answer this question better as I remember a post from him about a plug for an original 8/1 being higher in compression and he was thinking of using one hope he reads this and can advise as he is the real lister iron owner.

As to the question about WVO well I have no experience with it but I sure would think higher compression would help, of course the rod bearing will not like it but well that wouldn't stop me from trying it.

Billswan

« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 08:05:04 PM by billswan »
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #131 on: January 29, 2011, 07:47:51 PM »
Spencer I watched both videos twice. I have to say it is a very nice system. First what is the second motor hooked. Could not tell if it was electric or a pump? Next do you feel the engine was running hot enough? there is a guy in NZ that has has some pretty extensive research with WVO and I have emailed to see if he has experimented with WMO and his findings are run the compression high and run the engine hot. I noticed you were able to swipe you finger across the exhaust less than 12 inches from the engine. I also noted you water was 160. I wonder what if any would change if you maintained 190* water and I would think the exhaust should be so hot you could even think about even touch it. It is a nice video. Mike DD


Hi DD,
The second motor connected between the cooling tank and the engine is a dynamo which is charging up the forklift battery, that's the one in the black metal case on the jack truck.
The other batteries on the floor are just the starting batteries.
The dynamo is a 1250 watt second world war radio battery charger, the green box on the floor which I fiddle with contains the controls for it.
Don't forget the temp gauge is at the top of a thermosyphon system, so the engine is hotter than the gauge reads.
The thermostat is 85 degs and  the exhaust is , just went out and measured it but the battery in my laser temp guns a bit crappy and it's between 180 and 260 degs with about 2000 watts of load.
The engine burns all the WMO completely with out smoke and only ash formation and no black carbon.
This wear problem ,just my opinion is caused by abrasion from the ash which is formed from burn additives and is not related to any possible bad running or bad burning of the fuel.
I have sent bob a pm asking him to comment on the video and the white ash on the exhaust but so far no reply.

Cheers
Spencer

billswan

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #132 on: January 29, 2011, 07:57:36 PM »
Billswan could it be a possibility that as wear stated to further reduce compression ratio things really start to snowball downhill. Perhaps throwing in a set of rings at a thousand hours would head off a lot of wear. I found the liner on my 10-1 to be very hard as I chose to do a bit of machining on it rather than the cyl. casting. I could not fault fit or finish of the liner but of course no real measurement of hardness.
The other wear engine we are wrapped around the axle of apparently started out with a used cylinder in "good" condition.

If the wear is not showing up on valve guides, seats and valve faces, and is not migrating down to accellerate wear in the bearings it would be a relatively quick swap of parts if you had them pre fitted so as not have to do shim calculations.

Re the compression boost by changing the cup shape of the changeover parts: I made a new plug to contain my glow plug but did not attempt to do anything but maintain the volume. I did not CC things either so cannot tell you how much you could gain by removing all the concave shape. Hindsight now makes me wish I had kept some notes as my memory is about as good as a three year old with hiccups!

There is no doubt you are correct I believe I have posted that I noticed the crankcase vacuum disappeared and the oil seeps started at about 700 hours that might have been a great time to have stuck in a set of rings to late now.....

And OH MY GOSH the cylinder head is laying out in the shop and I totally forgot to pull the valves and check the seats and guides.
Will do that and report back tomorrow night I hope, if time allows. There is that memory problem again >:(

Billswan

16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

billswan

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #133 on: January 29, 2011, 07:59:54 PM »
Brett and Bill there is a post under WVO from a guy in NZ. I'm not sure if I put it in here. He seems very he has spent numerous hours with pictures and specs. His main information is for WVO. Is this the same fellow you were speaking about. if so I guess I hadn't found the Holy Grail. DAM. Anyway look and see just for the heck of it. Mike DD    back to bed.  DD

DD

Yes that is the stuff I read.

Billswan

16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

DRDEATH

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Re: Danger engine damage
« Reply #134 on: January 29, 2011, 10:39:06 PM »
Spencer is the ash dry or wet??? Somehow we need to figure out how to get it to blow out. I didn't think about where the temp gauge was located. As for Bob he is probably taking a nap. I wish I was still asleep but I have to work again tonight instead of tomorrow morning. Mike DD
Breast cancer kills. It takes money to save lives.