Author Topic: Wmo  (Read 208019 times)

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2010, 04:55:01 PM »
Spencer, One of my great interests in life is problem solving. It gives us all a great opportunity to enrich our lives and move forward.
I have been pondering your responses and low and behold Wags has come to the same conclusion.
Is this the real problem you are trying to solve?
I believe you have raised a very valid point for investigation and it deserves further discussion.
This is a great forum with a wealth of knowledge and you are the only person who has come forward with long-term experience of wmo use.
I would be grateful if you could post more of your findings and look forward to postings from our more knowledgeable members.


I have spent a lot of time on trying to solve this problem and I have come to a conclusion, but would like to hear from other people with experience of WMO use and any wear problems before I post it as being the absolute truth.

You only want to hear praise as being right. You are not open to other options as to what is causing the wear. So, hell... you are right. Now maybe others can find the truth.
Wags
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2010, 04:59:26 PM »
Spencer...
Seems you think I have nothing to add. I'll tell you what. You post your engine building resume' and I'll post mine. I know who will win.

You say you used a salvaged cylinder or something like that. I wonder why it was tossed to the side. You are using used crap and have problems and are pissed off about it. You are condemning using wvo based upon your half assed methods. Great idea. I see the educational system over there is as good as the healthcare. Keep up the good work.

Again... maybe you are right. Maybe 100% wmo is a problem. But with your blinders on you will never see any other possibilities.

Oh, and you said I have addded nothing to the thread. Again, your opinion. You have missed a couple of points while being pissy.
Wags

New parts fitted at the start apart from the cylinder block.
You might think I don't know what I am doing but the cylinder block come from Peter forbes and he said it was good so perhaps you also think he does not know what he's taking about also.
You mentioned WVO, I did not so post some thing important or just leave me alone.

Spencer

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2010, 05:08:12 PM »
I have also sent a email to the chap who had a Listeroid for sale with 17k hours of WMO use, but I have not had a email back at the moment.
I wonder if he will not reply as he thinks it may put people of buying his engine.
He can probably give us some very use full information on the subject.
 
Spencer

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #108 on: December 26, 2010, 05:22:58 PM »
I have also sent a email to the chap who had a Listeroid for sale with 17k hours of WMO use, but I have not had a email back at the moment.
I wonder if he will not reply as he thinks it may put people of buying his engine.
He can probably give us some very use full information on the subject.
 
Spencer

Yes, I sent an email a few days ago and also no response. He might have sold it and so figures no point in answering.Thinking I might be a buyer.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #109 on: December 26, 2010, 05:23:58 PM »
OK, spencer. I'm done. How about some real questions? Is that ok?
I may have mentioned WVO... that was a typo. Sorry about the confusion.
1) Wear... is the wear only at the top of the cyl. near the exhaust valve?
2) What did the valve seat and stem look like? Did they show signs of the same blasting?
3) Piston top near the exh valve? Did it also show the signs?
4) Were there scores in the cylinder? Where is is possible bigger chunks of the abrasive did damage?
Thanks
Wags

Sorry I did not go back and re read the entire thread if these have already been answered. To many pages.
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #110 on: December 26, 2010, 05:50:08 PM »
OK, spencer. I'm done. How about some real questions? Is that ok?
I may have mentioned WVO... that was a typo. Sorry about the confusion.
1) Wear... is the wear only at the top of the cyl. near the exhaust valve?
2) What did the valve seat and stem look like? Did they show signs of the same blasting?
3) Piston top near the exh valve? Did it also show the signs?
4) Were there scores in the cylinder? Where is is possible bigger chunks of the abrasive did damage?
Thanks
Wags

Sorry I did not go back and re read the entire thread if these have already been answered. To many pages.

1) No problem
2)I did not notice any real wear but the seats where a bit crappy, the decompresser being on the exhaust valve does not help.
3)The piston was new at the start and still looked in very good order with no signs of wear any where
4)There did not seem to be any wear in the bore  apart from the one place under the exhaust valve, the rest of the chrome bore looked good,but could well be out of round.
Thanks
Matthew
 

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #111 on: December 26, 2010, 06:08:32 PM »
Hi Bill,
I’m not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove I’ve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasn’t in the oil from new.
I wouldn’t expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as it’s filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. I’ve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this ‘solid’ that is causing the wear, I’m not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.


Bottleveg

Above you wrote about pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. Could you please give me some help on that sentence as I am not seeing what you mean ???

Billswan

Hi Bill,
I’m referring to the ‘stalactite’ formation on injector tips. This suggests to me that the high pressure is separating the wmo. The oil has been vaporised and some of the contaminant has ‘dribbled’ out to create this formation.
I have also read other posts about car injector pumps blocking after the use of ‘well filtered’ wmo. The posters describe how blockages have formed on the high-pressure side of the pump. The oil has gone but the contaminants are left to create the blockage.
This suggests to me that finer filtering would be beneficial and begs the question,  could wmo be cleaned using some type of pressure vessel?


Bottleveg

Great answer, I was not aware that some users of WMO in car type engines had experienced blockages. It would be great if someone that had some of this material could scrap some out and have it analyzed to see what it is. I am not sure where a person would send it or what it would cost but if it could be done the analysis would sure tell a story.

The fellow that I bought my 16/1  metro from, SAM Crosby said that the people that use WMO usually find an almost glass like deposit inside the combustion chamber or that is what I remember him relating. Makes one think that possibly just plain dirt that finds it way into the waste oil through air filters and down past rings that is so fine it is just not filter out able is melting during combustion and then forms glass or dirt like ash that is then heat hardened just like clay in a kiln.
Has anyone here that does use a waste oil burner ever clean out there furnaces and then burn say 5 gallons of new oil to see if the white ash is still there?
That would prove my question above. If the white ash is still there then it could not be dirt as new oil should have very little dirt in it.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #112 on: December 26, 2010, 06:35:32 PM »
Bill,
When I set up my Lister FR1 I will run it on hydraulic oil from a company just down the road if I can get enough of it.
I have had some from them before and it is real clean but for some reason it all ways has lots of water in it.
I will dry some out and run the engine on it and see if there is any white ash,
I did run the Lister CS on a drum of 205 litres of new 2 stroke oil and I don't remember there being less carbon or less white ash.
I also have a omni waste oil boiler, but it has a big oil tank so trying different oil is not an easy thing to do.
I am sure I read some where the white ash is the oil additives, so I am not sure if all oils have not got some additives of some sort,including hydraulic oil.
Maybe the oil companies make oil this way to stop people from using it as a diesel fuel ;)
 
Spencer

buickanddeere

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #113 on: December 26, 2010, 08:07:38 PM »
  If your source of wmo is low ash oil from hydraulic systems, gas turbines and two stroke SF-2 detroit diesel motor oil. Deposits and problems will be minimal.
  Wmo loaded with super duper metalic and mineral anti-wear/anti-corrosion is going to leave unburned metal and minerals in the engine. Tiss the nature of the beast.The stuff doesn't burn at 1800F.
  You can use wonder filters down to 0.5 micron of suspended material but you are not touching the metal and mineral ions.
  Either find oil less troublesome or live with water injection to steam blast the engine clean.And reduced engine life from the anti-wear additives.   

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #114 on: December 26, 2010, 08:24:18 PM »
  If your source of wmo is low ash oil from hydraulic systems, gas turbines and two stroke SF-2 detroit diesel motor oil. Deposits and problems will be minimal.
  Wmo loaded with super duper metalic and mineral anti-wear/anti-corrosion is going to leave unburned metal and minerals in the engine. Tiss the nature of the beast.The stuff doesn't burn at 1800F.
  You can use wonder filters down to 0.5 micron of suspended material but you are not touching the metal and mineral ions.
  Either find oil less troublesome or live with water injection to steam blast the engine clean.And reduced engine life from the anti-wear additives.   

I just Googled low ash oil and one web site said that oil that leaks past piston rings then burns in the combustion camber and the additives produce ash.
So that sorts that one out then.
So if that's the case then only low ash oil which must be engineered that way or oils that have little or no additive in them are the only oils suitable for running in a diesel as fuel.
That only leaves hydraulic oil I guess.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #115 on: December 26, 2010, 08:54:39 PM »
Just googled hydraulic oil and that's got additives in it as well, so that's not looking to good either.

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #116 on: December 26, 2010, 10:04:25 PM »
My only question is why the centralized blast area. It seems as if there should be more signs of the abrasive. Like cyl scuffing, wear around the top ring, valve seat and stem, etc.
Now, at 1800 hours a cast iron seat will be beat up. For a long hour run such as this... I'd have hardened seats put in. Not just any "hard" seats, but something much harder. Valves are easier to replace than seats to machine. (for one not equipped with the tools) Propane compatable seats are the hardest, cheap, readily available. Other metals will transfer heat quicker, race world stuff, probably harder to find in the UK.
Back on point. Is it possible the blast area is a function of heat? WMO runs hotter than diesel (it should as it contains more btu's) So, I assume? this is the area where the injector spray points. Most concentrated heat area. Also, how is cooling right at the wear point? With the compression valve right at the same area... is that very spot getting hot enough to burn the chrome?
Is it a thermo siphon system, or pumped. Maybe... it is a function of heat.
It seems like the top of the piston should also be blasted if it was abrasive.
Other metals will take the heat more IF that is the issue.
Wags
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2010, 02:10:16 AM »
  If your source of wmo is low ash oil from hydraulic systems, gas turbines and two stroke SF-2 detroit diesel motor oil. Deposits and problems will be minimal.
  Wmo loaded with super duper metalic and mineral anti-wear/anti-corrosion is going to leave unburned metal and minerals in the engine. Tiss the nature of the beast.The stuff doesn't burn at 1800F.
  You can use wonder filters down to 0.5 micron of suspended material but you are not touching the metal and mineral ions.
  Either find oil less troublesome or live with water injection to steam blast the engine clean.And reduced engine life from the anti-wear additives.   

OK well just how much water per hour do you think a 10/1 listeroid would need to steam clean the cylinder?

.5 gallon an hour would be 12 gallons in 24 hours do you think that would be about right or not?

Of course what kind of water? Most water has minerals in it so are we talking distilled if so well that stuff ain't free.

At least the water on my farm even after the water softener has some iron in it and manganese sulfate. :(

billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

buickanddeere

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #118 on: December 27, 2010, 05:03:11 AM »
  Water injection need not to be 24/7. A couple of minutes every hour is lots.

  Anybody familiar with two stroke detroit diesels will be familiar when some dork doesn't read or believe the operator's manual. And uses engine oil that isn't low residue/low ash SF-2. The engine binds and grinds up with un-burned additives. The exhaust ports plug up with deposits along with stuck rings and scored sleeves.
  Want to see a true low ash oil? Two stroke engine oil is as low ash as you will find anywhere. You always tell when somebody is mixing four stroke motor oil with gasoline and thinks all is ok. It's the same guy with the ruined two stroke motor that has starting problems and low power.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #119 on: December 27, 2010, 10:05:11 PM »
  Water injection need not to be 24/7. A couple of minutes every hour is lots.

  Anybody familiar with two stroke detroit diesels will be familiar when some dork doesn't read or believe the operator's manual. And uses engine oil that isn't low residue/low ash SF-2. The engine binds and grinds up with un-burned additives. The exhaust ports plug up with deposits along with stuck rings and scored sleeves.
  Want to see a true low ash oil? Two stroke engine oil is as low ash as you will find anywhere. You always tell when somebody is mixing four stroke motor oil with gasoline and thinks all is ok. It's the same guy with the ruined two stroke motor that has starting problems and low power.

So that's what is wrong with that old detroit I got. I never new that and that old i believe 692 used oil and leaks oil and here it is just the 15-40 tractor oil  I been putting in the poor old critter.Boy what you don't learn trying to get a roid to run.........

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?