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Author Topic: Wmo  (Read 208024 times)

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2010, 06:48:28 PM »
The bore wear is my main concern as replacing rings at regular intervals is not a problem.
The bore being chrome might have apart in the wear patten I have seen.
 I hope some one with a Lister or Listeroid  can post there results after they have use WMO and clocked up some reasonable hours.
My engine is still running and has about 2400 hours on it at the moment.
All I want is proof the bore is not going to keep wearing out.
When your engine gets to 1800 hour from my experience it will be worn out.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #76 on: December 23, 2010, 02:42:52 AM »
Guys I sure wish I had a bore scope to inspect the cylinder with every time I clean the injector.

Today it was warm so my 10/1 got the day off it sat still for almost 12 hours before I had to restart it. And by the way it started I am afraid I will have to rig up a starter soon as with a hand crank it just is starting to get to be a bear to start. The compression is defiantly down and it took many turns to build up enough heat and fuel in the cylinder to bring it to life.

Sure wish my friend with his injector crack tester would show up. I would like to see where the injector is at compared to a new one. Before I start swapping in a new one.

If there is any one here that has experience with a bore scope please speak up. If there is heavy wear in a non chrome bore could you see it or not?
Or can you only see damage like scuffing. Subtle wear not noticeable?

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #77 on: December 23, 2010, 07:27:04 PM »


You could make your own pop tester from a grease gun and a pressure gauge.
I have a pop tester and have tested my injector regularly and I have had to clean it a couple of times but the pressure has never changed between intervals.
I upped the pressure but this did not make any difference apart from more diesel knock
I also advanced the timing but that made no difference apart from making the engine run coarser.
Heated the injector and ran in high compression that made no difference ,but running in low compression did make  the engine running smoother but no difference to coking.
From my experience with WMO the engine will have ring and bore wear at about 1800 hours and if my engine was not electric start then I would have not  gotten to 1800 hours as it would have been imposable to have start  by hand as the hours increased.

     ;)

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #78 on: December 24, 2010, 12:50:30 AM »


You could make your own pop tester from a grease gun and a pressure gauge.
I have a pop tester and have tested my injector regularly and I have had to clean it a couple of times but the pressure has never changed between intervals.
I upped the pressure but this did not make any difference apart from more diesel knock
I also advanced the timing but that made no difference apart from making the engine run coarser.
Heated the injector and ran in high compression that made no difference ,but running in low compression did make  the engine running smoother but no difference to coking.
From my experience with WMO the engine will have ring and bore wear at about 1800 hours and if my engine was not electric start then I would have not  gotten to 1800 hours as it would have been imposable to have start  by hand as the hours increased.

     ;)

Well that just about covers what my plans are. I was hopping upping the crack pressure would help break up the oil better but looks like you find no improvement there.

I do have a grease gun gauge setup for setting hydraulic thermal relief and other hydraulic pop offs but I think rather than use it I will barrow my neighbors tester.

There is one other thing that I have read about that I was going to try and that is dual fuel with propane. Seams that really helps with carbon as the propane of course reduces the amount of oil used but also seams to change the way the burn in the cylinder takes place and helps consume more of the oil and hence  there is less carbon left behind. I know a second fuel will cost money but if the roid fails and I will still need to heat I will have to buy propane at the rate of about 15 to 18 gallons a day so if I could just use a gallon or 2 to supplement the oil maybe that way I could keep using WMO for the lions share of the load.

On the engine running smother at low compression I have sure noticed that, as in the last couple weeks the vibration caused by the ignition pulse is defiantly reduced and everything vibrates much less.

Billswan

16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #79 on: December 24, 2010, 01:02:41 AM »
Guys I sure wish I had a bore scope to inspect the cylinder with every time I clean the injector.

If there is any one here that has experience with a bore scope please speak up. If there is heavy wear in a non chrome bore could you see it or not?
Or can you only see damage like scuffing. Subtle wear not noticeable?

Billswan
I'd say yes if you are used to looking at cylinders. Bore scopes aren't like just looking at something. They take a little getting used to.

Why does using WMO increase cyl wear? That seems to be the opposite of what one would expect. I guess I'll have to read the whole tthread.
Wags
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #80 on: December 24, 2010, 01:45:17 AM »
Guys I sure wish I had a bore scope to inspect the cylinder with every time I clean the injector.

If there is any one here that has experience with a bore scope please speak up. If there is heavy wear in a non chrome bore could you see it or not?
Or can you only see damage like scuffing. Subtle wear not noticeable?

Billswan
I'd say yes if you are used to looking at cylinders. Bore scopes aren't like just looking at something. They take a little getting used to.

Why does using WMO increase cyl wear? That seems to be the opposite of what one would expect. I guess I'll have to read the whole tthread.
Wags

Yes please read the whole thread. Would love to hear your point of view. I also would agree that WMO should not cause wear but that is not what I am experiencing. It seams that it accelerates wear dramatically. I am wondering if the additives in the oil are the problem. As they burn up they must make abrasive ash that is like pumice with the oil and forms grinding compound on the cylinder walls. I sure could be wrong and there is some other gremlin causing problems like real cheap parts that just have no hope of longevity.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

wagspe208

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #81 on: December 24, 2010, 04:36:32 AM »
Bill, I read the thread. It seems as WMO is not causing problems with injectors/ pumps. So, this would lead us to believe the oil is not the problem per se'.
So, by product of combustion...well... I build a home made waste oil furnace. It does deposit burned ash inside after hours of run. I'd believe it is abrasive. Now, this furnace is not osha approved.  ;D I only use it when I am around. So, I probably clean it a little after 10 hours of run time. This is hugely frequent compared to a constant use application.

Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags
Novo Type "S" 4hp
Lister 8/1
Engine machinist for 20+ years. Glad to help anyone out.

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #82 on: December 24, 2010, 01:20:20 PM »
Bill, I read the thread. It seems as WMO is not causing problems with injectors/ pumps. So, this would lead us to believe the oil is not the problem per se'.
So, by product of combustion...well... I build a home made waste oil furnace. It does deposit burned ash inside after hours of run. I'd believe it is abrasive. Now, this furnace is not osha approved.  ;D I only use it when I am around. So, I probably clean it a little after 10 hours of run time. This is hugely frequent compared to a constant use application.

Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags



Hi,
If you read all of the thread you would have seen that the Lister chrome plated bore has worn through in less than 1800 hours and my engine is a genuine Lister.
Burning WMO in a waste oil burner or engine make no difference ,burnt oil makes ash and how long you burn the oil makes no difference it still makes ash.

So if you burn a small amount of oil you make a small amount of ash and so on.
If the ash is the problem and if a chrome bore is going to wear out then there is little point in trying to replace it with some thing harder as that's not sorting the problem out, that's trying to get around it but the ash is still going to be abrasive and will wear moving parts out.

Now if Bills engine has not got a chrome bore and he strips his engine and finds the bore has only worn slightly and evenly then that would indicate that a cast bore is better than a chrome bore which is more likely to wear through in one spot which makes it very hard for the rings to seal.
If the bore would last 4000 hours then the whole project has a future.
The rings last 1800 hours but will have worn and need replacing before that really.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #83 on: December 24, 2010, 01:25:28 PM »
Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags


Wagspe208

I am using listeroid parts that I believe are as close to the bottom shelf as can be. This is the first listeroid I have had experience with but compared to American made engines well ........................

Spencer1885 has real Lister parts with chrome bore and is and has had problems.

As far as this Nikasil stuff I have only read of the stuff or the  process no experience so please tell me more.

How is it applied?

Do you have to hone some room for it? How thick is the coating?

After it is there do you use the sleeve that way or do you hone a cross hatch into it. If so what type of and what coarseness stones are needed to hone it?
I have to wonder about the quality of my sleeve and then what about the replacement. If the sleeve that I am using is real soft bottom of the barrel quality, something to get the engine sold, and then the replacement would be high quality may be I could double the run time with just a replacement of the original parts.

I guess time and an eventual autopsy of the motor will tell some secrets.

So far my 10/1 is up to 1275 hours but as the weather goes cold again it will go back to 24 x 7 operation and that will rack up hours fast so will be to Spencer's 1800 hour line in the sand in about a month of cold weather and no other breakdowns. Personally I just might not get there as the compression is so low the engine is getting very hard to start with the hand crank. If I only could decided what type and way to put a starter on it and then find the time then that would help keep the engine alive for a while longer.


Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #84 on: December 24, 2010, 01:44:33 PM »
Parts... you are using listeorid parts? Do lister chrome cylinders also suffer the same problem?
As you said.. rings are pretty cheap. The cylinders need to live. How about getting a cylinder coated with Nikasil (sp?). Most dirt bikes/ atvs, etc use them. The Nikasil is hard as hell. Harder than chrome I believe. Pretty cheap to get a cylinder done now a days. 100 bucks or so. Cheap if it lasts long term.

How many hours are you getting on a set of rings? This should be a relatively easy problem to solve also.
Wags


Wagspe208

I am using listeroid parts that I believe are as close to the bottom shelf as can be. This is the first listeroid I have had experience with but compared to American made engines well ........................

Spencer1885 has real Lister parts with chrome bore and is and has had problems.

As far as this Nikasil stuff I have only read of the stuff or the  process no experience so please tell me more.

How is it applied?

Do you have to hone some room for it? How thick is the coating?

After it is there do you use the sleeve that way or do you hone a cross hatch into it. If so what type of and what coarseness stones are needed to hone it?
I have to wonder about the quality of my sleeve and then what about the replacement. If the sleeve that I am using is real soft bottom of the barrel quality, something to get the engine sold, and then the replacement would be high quality may be I could double the run time with just a replacement of the original parts.

I guess time and an eventual autopsy of the motor will tell some secrets.

So far my 10/1 is up to 1275 hours but as the weather goes cold again it will go back to 24 x 7 operation and that will rack up hours fast so will be to Spencer's 1800 hour line in the sand in about a month of cold weather and no other breakdowns. Personally I just might not get there as the compression is so low the engine is getting very hard to start with the hand crank. If I only could decided what type and way to put a starter on it and then find the time then that would help keep the engine alive for a while longer.


Billswan


Bill why don't you get a Briggs & Stratton engine as some of those came with a reduction gearbox.
Weld a frame so you can pull up the Briggs engine with a rubber wheel fitted to the reduction gearbox, this can rub against the Listeroid flywheel to spin it up.

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #85 on: December 24, 2010, 02:23:01 PM »
Quote

Bill why don't you get a Briggs & Stratton engine as some of those came with a reduction gearbox.
Weld a frame so you can pull up the Briggs engine with a rubber wheel fitted to the reduction gearbox, this can rub against the Listeroid flywheel to spin it up.
Quote

Spencer

Well actually I do have a honda 5 or 6 hp with a gear box but my listeroid is in my large shop and I am not sure I want to have to smell that stink. To many cubic feet of air to air out and I am just to lazy to build an exhaust system for the small engine. I have lots of stuff that could be used just have to find the TIME............
 BY the way you said at 1800 hours you had to rebuild your motor where are you at now on hours on the engine or have you moved onto the other engine you mentioned? I read so much on this and other forums it is hard to keep it all straight............

Billswan

16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

spencer1885

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #86 on: December 24, 2010, 02:38:04 PM »
Quote

Bill why don't you get a Briggs & Stratton engine as some of those came with a reduction gearbox.
Weld a frame so you can pull up the Briggs engine with a rubber wheel fitted to the reduction gearbox, this can rub against the Listeroid flywheel to spin it up.
Quote

Spencer

Well actually I do have a honda 5 or 6 hp with a gear box but my listeroid is in my large shop and I am not sure I want to have to smell that stink. To many cubic feet of air to air out and I am just to lazy to build an exhaust system for the small engine. I have lots of stuff that could be used just have to find the TIME............
 BY the way you said at 1800 hours you had to rebuild your motor where are you at now on hours on the engine or have you moved onto the other engine you mentioned? I read so much on this and other forums it is hard to keep it all straight............

Billswan



1800 hours when the head gasket blow so I removed the cylinder block and that's when I found the wear.
I put it back together with a new head gasket and fitted some old rings which were better than the worn out rings but not by much.
After Christmas I will set up the Lister FR1 and use that for the time being.
Not sure what's the problem with using the Honda engine to start the Listeroid as it will only be running for such a sort time the exhaust fumes will not be a problem.

Bottleveg

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #87 on: December 25, 2010, 10:48:02 AM »
I’ve noticed this type of wear on a few CS engines that, as far as I know, have only been run on diesel. My conclusion on the cause has been faulty, broken or worn compression ring or lack of upper cylinder lubrication due to a blocked oil control ring and/or faulty engine breather. I believe the breather is designed to create a vacuum on the cylinder’s upward stroke and therefore draw oil into the void that is created?
If this wear is accelerated by the use of wmo then here are some possibilities I’ve thought of:
As far as I’m aware, wmo does burn hotter than standard diesel. In wmo burners, the flame length is increased and will therefore eventually burn the back out of chambers that are not long enough to accommodate the burner. This could account for the lack of lubrication on the exhaust side of the bore (lubricating oil vaporising on contact)
It’s my belief that the white ash created from burning wmo comes from the non-oil content. Again, with wmo burners, the finer I filter the oil, the less ash I get.
I’ve found that the greatest percentage of non-oil is below 1 micron so, if the ash is causing the problem in engines, filtering to ½ micron should improve the situation. It would certainly reduce the build up on injector tips.
It is worth noting that filter efficiency varies considerably so any reasonable test should be done with a known type. Sock type filters have the lowest efficiency. Cartridge filters normally have a percentage rating, some are as low as 60%.
So a 1 micron filter that is rated at 60% is probably no better than a 90% 5 micron.
‘Absolute’ filters will give the best results but are obviously more costly.
Many filters manufactured in China seem to have ratings above their actual efficiency.
Anyway, Happy, whatever it is you celebrate in your household, to you all.  :)

billswan

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #88 on: December 25, 2010, 01:50:15 PM »
I’ve noticed this type of wear on a few CS engines that, as far as I know, have only been run on diesel. My conclusion on the cause has been faulty, broken or worn compression ring or lack of upper cylinder lubrication due to a blocked oil control ring and/or faulty engine breather. I believe the breather is designed to create a vacuum on the cylinder’s upward stroke and therefore draw oil into the void that is created?
If this wear is accelerated by the use of wmo then here are some possibilities I’ve thought of:
As far as I’m aware, wmo does burn hotter than standard diesel. In wmo burners, the flame length is increased and will therefore eventually burn the back out of chambers that are not long enough to accommodate the burner. This could account for the lack of lubrication on the exhaust side of the bore (lubricating oil vaporising on contact)
It’s my belief that the white ash created from burning wmo comes from the non-oil content. Again, with wmo burners, the finer I filter the oil, the less ash I get.
I’ve found that the greatest percentage of non-oil is below 1 micron so, if the ash is causing the problem in engines, filtering to ½ micron should improve the situation. It would certainly reduce the build up on injector tips.
It is worth noting that filter efficiency varies considerably so any reasonable test should be done with a known type. Sock type filters have the lowest efficiency. Cartridge filters normally have a percentage rating, some are as low as 60%.
So a 1 micron filter that is rated at 60% is probably no better than a 90% 5 micron.
‘Absolute’ filters will give the best results but are obviously more costly.
Many filters manufactured in China seem to have ratings above their actual efficiency.
Anyway, Happy, whatever it is you celebrate in your household, to you all.  :)


Bottleveg

Thanks for joining in! I doubt if I have broken rings. I have much experience in assembling engines but I cannot say I have never broken a ring so it could be possible.

The engine seemed like it did have crankcase vac until about 700 hours at that point It seemed to spring a leak all over so I suppose that is the point in time that the blow by got to the point the vacuum could no longer form.

Well we know the heaver the oil the more BTU's per gallon but I have only some experience with waste oil burners and I do admit dealing with all the ash is a full time job unless you own some very modern burners.

When you talk of non-oil content you mean contaminates like wear particles and carbon? Or are we talking of the additive package in new oil that prevent wear and holds trash in suspension and other things like that make oil multi grade?

I only run settled oil through 1 screen before a pump then a finer screen then an tractor diesel engine oil filter then through a diesel engine primary and the secondary filter into a barrel. Then so far the oil has sat for almost a year and then the same system is used to pump most of the barrel (leaving the bottom 2 inches) into a day tank except the very final filter is changed to a finer filter which is as best I can remember 6 microns. The coarser first  filter is 10 microns. So maybe I am not filtering fine enough comparing to your .5 micron example. But the injector pump and nozzle seem to survive, you would think debris  would cut up the injector pump in on time.

 I do realize that filters don't necessarily filter to a certain level on the first pass. Although  a final fuel filter sure don't get multiple cracks at filtering.

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

Bottleveg

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Re: Wmo
« Reply #89 on: December 25, 2010, 04:10:46 PM »
Hi Bill,
I’m not suggesting you have a broken ring; it was just an idea for possible cause of the cylinder groove I’ve seen.
I have no experience of the Indian engines but I guess they have a similar breather and cylinder lubrication system?
My thinking on the engine vacuum is that the top of the bore has the least lubrication, the exhaust valve side even less at times, so any breakdown of the breather would show itself here first.
Blow-by would start a downward spiral. Less vacuum, less lubrication, more ring wear and so on.
Yes, by non-oil I mean contaminants. Anything that wasn’t in the oil from new.
I wouldn’t expect wmo to cause any wear before combustion. So long as it’s filtered and dry then it still remains a lubricant.
I believe the standard car fuel filter is around 7 micron. One would therefore think that anything below 7 micron would pass through the system. I’ve found this only to be true up to a certain level (not sure what level) and after that the pump pressures appear to separate the fuel into liquid and solid. It could be this ‘solid’ that is causing the wear, I’m not sure.
Lister types are built with more tolerance so we get away with more contamination.