Author Topic: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.  (Read 16941 times)

Anubis

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Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« on: July 04, 2010, 11:50:14 AM »
Does anybody have any idea (Or has experimented with)  what the safe maximum water jacket pressure is on a Lister CS?

IE Can it be used as "Part" of a domestic heating system in a CHP application or are domestic heating system pressures likely to be too high (especially sealed ones) requiring that a suitable heat exchanger be used ?

Anubis

compig

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2010, 02:43:07 PM »
They don't like to be pressurised and would need to use an open or vented expansion tank.
To recover heat into a DHW system you would need to run through an indirect tank, so the engine coolant would be routed through a heating coil.
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mike90045

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2010, 05:37:09 PM »
Does anybody have any idea (Or has experimented with)  what the safe maximum water jacket pressure is on a Lister CS?

The O ring is only good for 2 or 3 PSI.   Not much. More than that, and it leaks water into the crankcase.

Tijean

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2010, 07:20:16 PM »
The head gasket is not designed for water jacket pressure as it has no sealing wrap arounds of top and bottom surfaces at the water passages and bolt holes. Especially if cylinder sleeve protrusion is high or uneven it worsens the risk of leaks.

If the O rings are installed properly with lube and the casting surfaces are complete and  smoothed on the forcing ramps the O ring system is the same as lots of engines that run 15 or more PSI. but mine needed new O rings and a bit of JB Weld.

I am running about 5 psi by nipping one ring of the pressure cap spring. You certainly cannot in any way, shape, or form, allow house system pressure in the engine jacket.
Frank

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Tom

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2010, 02:11:38 AM »
Does anybody have any idea (Or has experimented with)  what the safe maximum water jacket pressure is on a Lister CS?

The O ring is only good for 2 or 3 PSI.   Not much. More than that, and it leaks water into the crankcase.

Mike, it sounds like there is a story here you need to tell us.  ;)

Tom
Tom
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Anubis

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2010, 09:19:35 AM »
Thanks for that, I had figured that this would be the case but wondered what other peoples experiences might be. (Good or bad...  ;D)

 

billswan

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 01:16:38 PM »
The head gasket is not designed for water jacket pressure as it has no sealing wrap arounds of top and bottom surfaces at the water passages and bolt holes. Especially if cylinder sleeve protrusion is high or uneven it worsens the risk of leaks.

If the O rings are installed properly with lube and the casting surfaces are complete and  smoothed on the forcing ramps the O ring system is the same as lots of engines that run 15 or more PSI. but mine needed new O rings and a bit of JB Weld.

I am running about 5 psi by nipping one ring of the pressure cap spring. You certainly cannot in any way, shape, or form, allow house system pressure in the engine jacket.

I will agree with Tijean

I run a 4 PSI pressure cap on my 10/1 and have no problems. The original orings would never have held up, bad quality material and POOR install. But with proper orings properly installed the bottom end in my opinion would hold up to what a modern engine holds.

The head gasket is another story it is not up to modern standards. With the proper treatment it has held for me at 4 psi, I doubt it would make it up to modern engine standards of 15 to 20 PSI.

So in my opinion a properly set up roid is safe at 5 PSI or less but I would never trust one out of the crate a more than 0.

There are some modern head gaskets made for these engines but I have never seen one. But with those gaskets and some luck in the casting quality department you might be OK at higher cooling system pressures like 15 PSI but that is just a guess on my part.

Billswan
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10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

compig

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 01:29:06 PM »
Don't forget genuine Lister CS's don't have a seperate liner, so the O ring issue doesn't apply. Head gasket is though.
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ronmar

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 06:50:45 PM »
Would you really want a blown head gasket contaminating your domestic water with diesel combustion gasses?

Is your engine in a place where it has no possibility of freezing? Jacket water and cold temps are a bad combination.  Corrosion might also be a problem.  Connecitng directly to the domestic loop, even if possible from a pressure perspective, would limit the engine operating temp.  A diesel needs to run near 200F to operate efficiently and burn cleanly.

A flat plate heatex in place of a radiator works great on mine, and if installed properly, still allows the engine to thermosiphon.  I use a 120f thermostat on the outlet of the heatex to deliver 120f water to the domestic system.  The engine has  a 195F thermostat so it runs at a good temperature. I run propolene glycol(non toxic) antifreeze in the primary loop. The heatex is stainless brazed with copper and rated to 400PSI so domestic pressure is no problem.  It is real easy to do and the two systems stay separate.
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fabricator

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 11:17:23 PM »
I think he is talking about domestic hot water heat not domestic potable hot water, you are right though heat exchanger is the only way to fly.
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mike90045

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2010, 06:11:32 AM »
Does anybody have any idea (Or has experimented with)  what the safe maximum water jacket pressure is on a Lister CS?

The O ring is only good for 2 or 3 PSI.   Not much. More than that, and it leaks water into the crankcase.

Mike, it sounds like there is a story here you need to tell us.  ;)

Tom

No story, I've just heard of all the leaks, 'roid quality,  and figured that's what the result would be, jacket water on the outside and inside !

Bottleveg

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2010, 09:56:41 AM »
Whilst were on the subject of heads. It’s worth having a good look at the mating surfaces. The previous owners of some of these engines weren’t as careful as we would be when servicing them.  I’ve had five now with head gasket trouble and on four of them the problem was due to the heads being ‘put’ onto other metal objects, leaving grooves for the compression to eventually track along or a ‘rise’ on the edge of the head or bolt hole.
Skimming the head obviously won’t allow pressures that the OP is looking for but it certainly gives them the original seal.

Anubis

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2010, 10:03:23 AM »
Yep, sounds like heat exchanger is the way to go!  ;D

Another thought that occurred to me  (since the amount of heat coming off the cooling system is unlikely to be that large. it is only a 3 Kw gen after all and I wont necessarily be using all of that all the time) is that the cooling water could be circulated (at low pressure) around its own heating loop with one or two domestic radiators of suitable capacity with an additional fan driven car type rad outside the house if the temperature gets too high due to lack of heat demand (House up to temp)

Said loop could be filled with antifreeze mixture!

An exhaust heat exchanger is of course a different issue! Here's a simple plan that I found that a reasonably competent welder should be able to follow.

http://www.volvoxengineering.com/images/heatexchange.pdf

Joe K

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2010, 01:29:51 PM »
A company called "Intelligen" out of Hopkinton, MA brought out a line of cogenerative domestic heating units in the 1990s.   Based on a Lister engine of some sort, the device had auto start which was actually controlled by the house temperature.   I.e. temperature drops, unit self starts, unit generates in "induction generator" mode putting power back out on the power lines.   Meanwhile, unit operation continues and heats the house with waste heat meanwhile accumulating a credit on the electric bill.   Thus you had only one energy input to your house, namely No. 2 oil to the engine/generator, and you get "free" electric power.

The units were kind of pricey at nearly $5K.   Payback was estimated at perhaps 5 years.   And with the induction generator there was no backup power - the grid was required for the unit to work.     

Intelligen still exists but has followed the marketplace into the "independent & backup power" route for businesses, shopping malls, government offices.

Joe

 

listeroil

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Re: Lister CS water jacket presure limits question.
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 11:43:38 PM »
According to David Edgingtons book on Lister CS engines Cs engines used in marine applications had their cylinder blocks and heads pressure tested to 100psi by Lloyds insurance inspectors.
So they can stand enormous pressures in the head and block.
The problem is the head gasket as already mentioned. Genuine Lister head gaskets leak under pressure also Indian head gaskets leak.
Fortunately there is now available modern style head gaskets from http://www.gasketstogo.com/Listeroid.htm and they work very well and can handle pressures up to 15psi no problem at all.
This information only applies to genuine Lister engines and  maybe Listeroids that don't have wet liners.
I used to work on Scania trucks a few years ago and when we replaced the wet liners we put Bars Leak Radiator Sealer in with the water. This was what the Scania main agents recommended just as a precaution to stop water from leaking past the rubber rings and into the sump.

Mick