Workshop values for Listeroids

[Mucke]

Hallo friends,

back after some time, I wonder if there is any compilation for exact and trust worthy values for all kind of clearances and torque values for  Listeroids of any kind.
My 12/1 īs for instance:
I asked the Lovson people and they gave me 1.9-2 mm head clearance  which I think is a lot.
They claim .10 - .13 mm big end clearance -
they give no info on head torque - which on a 12/1 with itīs larger bore should be higher than the 6/1 cīs !
Neither for big end torque.

Who knows for shure and where can I read it ?


thanks a lot
Rolf

btw I have built some electric starters on both 6/1 and 12/1 engines.
Ford Transit Van starter motor with fits the standard indian krank gear plates and turns even  a 12/1 cold start without the decompression device as long as you have a good 120 Ah battery.
The 6/1 is easy on a Nissan Vanette starter motor and also with a flexplate from a GM 4.2 l V6 engine.
The flexplate adapts fine to the crankshaft by help of a 1 mm sheet sleave .
I drilled thru the original fastening holes of the plate into the flywheels and tapped with 12 mm thread.

I also made a mask for a standard 54 mm steel pot saw for a slow power tool to mill a hole into the head to fit a standard thermostat and a standard Ford Fiesta thermostat housing .
The holes of the housingīs flange have just the right distance for the water outlet studs. 

[Tijean]

The piston to head clearance on the Jkson 10-1 was .075 inch which may be to control compression ratio as muchl as valve / piston collision (.008 valve lash compared to the .017 on a 6-1)  No experience with a 12-1 but it could call for a bit more clearance even than a 10-1 to keep compression ratios the same (providing the pre combustion chamber is the same)

That sounds like quite large clearance for the con rod big end. I set for .003 inch but the factory clearance was set larger. .002 to .003 is good if it is even all around

I dont think you would want higher torque on the head nuts for the larger displacement as they all (Listeroids) have the same diameter stud.

I saw more than one occasion in the manual where the decimal point in a specification was off by one place. Quite a difference!

[Mucke]

The piston to head clearance on the Jkson 10-1 was .075 inch which may be to control compression ratio as muchl as valve / piston collision (.008 valve lash compared to the .017 on a 6-1)  No experience with a 12-1 but it could call for a bit more clearance even than a 10-1 to keep compression ratios the same (providing the pre combustion chamber is the same)

That sounds like quite large clearance for the con rod big end. I set for .003 inch but the factory clearance was set larger. .002 to .003 is good if it is even all around

I dont think you would want higher torque on the head nuts for the larger displacement as they all (Listeroids) have the same diameter stud.

I saw more than one occasion in the manual where the decimal point in a specification was off by one place. Quite a difference!

Thanks Tijean,

today, India confirmed me the head clearance and it is the same as you say.
So is the torque (~ 165 ftpd) .
What happened: The brand new 12/1 blew the head gasket after 2 min. of running.
I hadnīt checked the head stud torque!
New gasket and torqued shows a 0.025 squish ! And the engine hammeres.
Than I counted the gaskets under the cylinder foot and as far as I can see there are already 5 of them.
Holy christ !
Would one really add so many more gaskets or would it be better to make a sheet metal spacer ?

Rolf

[Tijean]

[quote author=Mucke
Thanks Tijean,


What happened: The brand new 12/1 blew the head gasket after 2 min. of running.
I hadnīt checked the head stud torque!
New gasket and torqued shows a 0.025 squish ! And the engine hammeres.
Than I counted the gaskets under the cylinder foot and as far as I can see there are already 5 of them.
Holy christ !
Would one really add so many more gaskets or would it be better to make a sheet metal spacer ?

Rolf

Could be too little torque or sleeve projection above the cylinder being too high, too low or uneven.

I dont know what hammering sounds like to your ears but with that small a squish, valves could be hitting pistons. Intake starts to open 15 deg. or so BTDC when valve lash is at .008 . From memory exhaust has about the same overlap. How deep the valve seats are is part of the equation. I would ease the valves down by hand in various crank positions and see how close they come to hitting piston. Remember too it is not unheard of for valve timing to be out one tooth from proper spec. If you have strange noises and leaks best not too assume that anything is correct if it could have a bearing on what you are trying to blueprint.

I prefer to use some sheet metal in place of some of the paper gaskets. They hold the torque and easier to calculate instead of guessing how much the paper ones will crush. The advantage is that you can throw a few extra paper ones in and tear out the excess without pulling the cylinder back off. You cant do that with the metal ones. 

If you have to pull the cylinder, plan on replacing the O rings on bottom of sleave. You may find extra half gasket used to make the head stand true. The cylinder casting's surfaces are not always true 90 deg to the sleeve hole bore. Best to do a test fit up before putting the O rings in.

[billswan]

Mucke

Well if you are going to increase the squish you will have the head off again, so then it would become apparent if the valves were hitting the piston.

On my 10/1 I used a very close squish to raise compression on purpose. It did cause piston to valve interference so I went to the 6/1 wider valve clearances to prevent the problem, it was just enough.

Do you have the first blown head gasket to compare to the replacement? Thickness wise?

Maybe you are mistaking the noises you are hearing, have you spill timed it, it may be firing way to early.

As Tijan said check your valve clearances if they are clearing it will run with the narrow squish. If one of the valves is hitting, it's push rod will be very stressed you should be able to FEEL it as you roll the motor over by hand.

One other thing the decompressor may be to high, it was on my engine with the modified squish so be careful until you are sure of your running clearances.

Billswan

[lowspeedlife]

If you happen to be in the U.K. or don't mind paying the shipping, Stationary engine parts has aluminum cylinder block shims for sale.

   Scott R.

[Mucke]

Hallo and thanks Bill and Tijan and others,

head is off and yes, the outlet valve is slightly marked upon the piston.
But the piston doesn't even quite reach the rim of the cylinder protrusion !
And there still is the thickness of the (quite compressed-) gasket.
Anyway, I'll strip all those foot gaskets and make some new spacers.
I marked TDC at this occasion and will now check spill time.
Anyway, the noise doesn't come from bad timing, it was not there before I torqued the head to specs and the engine ran ( for some moments...)

Rolf

Mucke

Well if you are going to increase the squish you will have the head off again, so then it would become apparent if the valves were hitting the piston.

On my 10/1 I used a very close squish to raise compression on purpose. It did cause piston to valve interference so I went to the 6/1 wider valve clearances to prevent the problem, it was just enough.

Do you have the first blown head gasket to compare to the replacement? Thickness wise?

Maybe you are mistaking the noises you are hearing, have you spill timed it, it may be firing way to early.

As Tijan said check your valve clearances if they are clearing it will run with the narrow squish. If one of the valves is hitting, it's push rod will be very stressed you should be able to FEEL it as you roll the motor over by hand.

One other thing the decompressor may be to high, it was on my engine with the modified squish so be careful until you are sure of your running clearances.

Billswan

[billswan]

Mucke

Make sure the intake valve is not bent and the intake push rod is still straight.

Check your sleeve standout about .001 to  .007 inch. That is a good guess from memory so check those numbers.   

When setting the squish make sure the block is square to the crank.

Carefully remove the block and try not to ruin the base gaskets so they can be well accounted for and possibly be reused.

Not sure about valve timing but now would be a good time to confirm that the timing of the cam is correct and not off by 1 tooth.
I will leave it up to you to research that as my way with words is not the best, and even though I know how to do it relating that to you on a post is tough for me.

Billswan

[Mucke]

Hallo Bill and others,

I made a lot of foot spacers out of AL sheet 1.5 and 2 mm  and stacked them in between 2 paper gaskets + joint glue to get a non compressable squish which is at 0.7 mm right now after torquing. Engine runs smooth but the head gasket which looked good, now blew again. I put a new one in and am hoping for a better result.That liner protrusion thing is weird. Donīt know of any other make which has it. Difficult to get both cylinder and water channels tight.
Any solution to that ?

Thanks

Rolf

[Tijean]

How much liner protrusion is there?