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Author Topic: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro  (Read 27117 times)

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2010, 05:10:42 AM »
+ or - 5 Hz won't hurt anything but your clocks. (slow or fast) Motors and transformers are likely good for + - 10Hz before they complain, but the low voltage will really hurt, they will try to pull more amps, and that's more load = slower RPM's = lower voltage.....

Thanks mike90045,

Appreciate the reply and enjoyed your webpage and FaceBook pictures. I put up some of my wind stuff on FaceBook and intend to put up some of the Lister project once I get some other stuff ironed out, as you can see.

I'm just having too much fun I guess.

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2010, 05:13:04 AM »
What are the actual figures for rpm and frequency to which it drops! Is it black smoking then? This would give a better indication of whether it is governor related.

Doing the end for end swap on the governor spring adjuster screw and providing pivots removes some excess stack rate issue but it will not compensate if the springs inherent stack rate is too high. I did that mod and it improved things on my 10-1 running at 900 instead of 1000 but I still had too much variation. I used two smaller diameter wire springs in tandem to replace the supplied spring. Dont assume that the spring that came with the unit is correct especially if you drop the rpm from what it may have been designed for.

Somewhere in Georges material is a discussion about adding lead weight to the governor fly balls: this changes the spring stack rate relationship but pretty involved cure. It is a given that there must be some rpm drop to actuate the governor but the geometry of the linkage bell cranks and the spring characteristics can created a different amount of movement of the fuel rack in response to a given rpm change.

It is not very easy to simply explain but if you can visualize a spring 3 inches long that can be opened to mid extension by say 5 pounds and compare it to a twenty inch long spring that will open half way by the same weight, I think you can see that any given weight increase will cause more movement in the longer spring than the shorter spring.The two springs have a different stack rate. Some combinations will give lazy response and lots of droop and others will give hunting or loping.

I dont know of any way other than experimenting  but have done lots of it on various welder generators to get them to respond properly. Replacing with parts that look approximately like the others can give you some nightmares. I think somewhere on this site or the other one, there are pictures showing difference in governor weight for different size listeroid engines.

Tijean,

Thanks for the reply and the rundown on the governors. I'm working with that now and the explanation you gave regarding long vs short spring makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking that once I get the wiring to where I'd like it to be (if I can find out more about what I've actually got here) I'm going to need to stiffen up the return spring on my governor.

Thanks again,
Skipb

Tijean

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2010, 02:52:09 PM »


Thanks for the reply and the rundown on the governors. I'm working with that now and the explanation you gave regarding long vs short spring makes a lot of sense. I'm thinking that once I get the wiring to where I'd like it to be (if I can find out more about what I've actually got here) I'm going to need to stiffen up the return spring on my governor.

Thanks again,
Skipb

Once you get the spring rate concept and the selective effect of a bell crank angle more or less than 90 degrees, you should be able to muddle through getting a governor tuned but it does take patience

My guess on the spring though would be less stiff! That gives a bigger throttle rack movement in response to a given rpm change.
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2010, 12:07:48 AM »
Yep, I can see where you would be right about using a lighter spring for a quicker response. I'll have to play with it a bit I'm sure, like you said. I'll post my results.

Also sure do hope to hear from some of the Generator Guru's regarding the wiring on my ST gen head... would sure like to find the way to parallel the 110 volt outputs.

Don't want to take it in with two legs because I don't really have anything 220V and I don't guess I'm gonna want to play balance the load. I'm thinking that would probably be yet another learning curve for me.

Thanks

Tijean

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2010, 02:01:07 AM »
I jkust reviewed your posts. I could not get enough look at the wires to figure out where they came from. You said you are only loading one leg and it is drooping off the map.  The ends of the other 110 pair are not possibly shorted out somehow putting a further 2000watt load on, that you are not accounting for? I have the diode bridge fastened to the housing end plate so the Z windings pair and the pair going to the brushes are not in the picture with the stator output windings. hopefully they are 4 in number and you can decide to wire them for two separate legs of 110, or two legs of 110 in parallel, or as two series joined 110 giving availability of 110 and 220.
Another poster has described the situation where two stator coils are joine inside and a single lead brought out from the join. How to deal with that is described on Georges site and there are some good schematics kicking around that make the layout easier to identify. I dont know whether your gen head has the pair of much smaller ~5 volt wires coming out that are for an indicator light.  They are so much smaller they shouldnt confuse things though.
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2010, 03:32:43 AM »
I jkust reviewed your posts. I could not get enough look at the wires to figure out where they came from. You said you are only loading one leg and it is drooping off the map.  The ends of the other 110 pair are not possibly shorted out somehow putting a further 2000watt load on, that you are not accounting for? I have the diode bridge fastened to the housing end plate so the Z windings pair and the pair going to the brushes are not in the picture with the stator output windings. hopefully they are 4 in number and you can decide to wire them for two separate legs of 110, or two legs of 110 in parallel, or as two series joined 110 giving availability of 110 and 220.
Another poster has described the situation where two stator coils are joine inside and a single lead brought out from the join. How to deal with that is described on Georges site and there are some good schematics kicking around that make the layout easier to identify. I dont know whether your gen head has the pair of much smaller ~5 volt wires coming out that are for an indicator light.  They are so much smaller they shouldnt confuse things though.

Tijean,

I just sent off a note to Sam Crosby asking him if he had a schematic for this gen head? I'm hoping he can help that way, also asked him if this is center tapped? I still don't know and don't have the experience to id it.  There are four brushes the two on the outer end are actually tied together. And I still can't figure what I figure is a big rectifier bridge on the opposite side from the variable resistor??? I've spent a lot of time on Utterpower and I even bought the cd a few years ago but the site itself has quite a few schematics and they are great as basic examples but really don't cover this one??

I'd really like to be able to parallel the 110V outputs, of course, I'd imagine someone (wiser than I) could give me reasons not to but for now that's what I'd really like to do so that I can utilize the gen's full ability.

Oh yeah, I find no shorts or opens in this and I'd have thought if there was a 2K load on this due to short + the load I added that would have really killed it?

I've made some spring changes too and I really like the response difference but will need more time to play with it... original spring at half load was approx 6lbs the new one is approx 5lbs at mid pull.... using a draw scale reading in lbs.

I'd also like to add that when I set this motor at 650rpm the frequency is at 65hz and now the volts is at 130V , I can adjust the resistor for that and it's now at 650rpm / 64-65hz / 128Volts ... when I fire up the turbo heater on it using a 50' extension cord it reads: 630rpm / 63hz / 122-123V ... and when starting the heater the rpm's responded pretty quickly actually.  Thoughts on this??

behoof

« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 03:43:26 AM by behoof »

M61hops

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2010, 09:59:57 AM »
Hi behoof, welcome to the group!  What exactly is the compressor you need to run?  Voltage, horsepower, RPM, CFM, # of cylinders ETC. ?  Can it be wired for 220?  I think you might need to wire it for 220V and add more volume between the exhaust valves and the check valve so that the motor can get up to speed before it has to pump against tank pressure!  If your gen head was made in India it is a completely different design than ST heads from China  :o !!  It is probably a series wound head and they are usually very good at starting motors.  It might be that it is just not possible to run your compresser.  Small generators have a hard time starting motors for many reasons  :P.  Good luck with the govenor changes, Listeroids all need a lot of help with their speed control, you usually have to live with some speed drop.  Someday I'd like to try making some heavier flyweights for mine to see if I can make it hold HZ better.                 Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

Tijean

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2010, 03:37:15 PM »
Behoof, the rectifier system you have is functionally a bridge rectifier setup using individual diodes (plus some load and capacitance items ithink, to clean up ripple) What is now commonly used is encapsulated into about an inch and a quarter square, 1/4" thick unit with a central bolt to mount and connections are 4, 6mm spade prongs: neater, tougher and better heatsink.

 I think the other governor spring you are trying is a move in the right direction. The long shanked spring you are using to take up slack in your linkage is becoming functionally part of your main governor spring. I have not seen it done that way before.

Try to get the statistics M61hops suggests on compressor and motor. Also try to get a look at the smoke from the exhaust as an indicator of engine overload or not. Can you get a reading of the voltage at the moment when the compressor is trying to start under load.

Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

Tijean

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2010, 06:26:33 PM »
Just a thought; What kind of belt drive do you have? I had belt slippage in some initial heavy load tests and it is not easy to see. If you had both tach. on the engine and the frequency meter you could spot it immediately. Otherwise  your volts and frequency would drop way off and your engine still perhaps not blacksmoke if the belts slipping.

If you are simply overloading the gen leg you are hooked to and the engine and drive is capable of more, you should see voltage drop but the frequency will still hold. Maybe the proper term for this is electrical saturation. I just came in from trying this on my setup. Took pictures of the K-O-Watt meter at no load and bogged down to near 6KW (ST5)  123V 62cps and 107-109 and 59-60 cps plus lots of black smoke. New camera and software to figure out though, before I can do the pictures.


Pics at http://s655.photobucket.com/home/Tijean_photo/recentuploads?page=2
« Last Edit: March 06, 2010, 07:10:12 PM by Tijean »
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2010, 02:06:29 AM »
Hi behoof, welcome to the group!  What exactly is the compressor you need to run?  Voltage, horsepower, RPM, CFM, # of cylinders ETC. ?  Can it be wired for 220?  I think you might need to wire it for 220V and add more volume between the exhaust valves and the check valve so that the motor can get up to speed before it has to pump against tank pressure!  If your gen head was made in India it is a completely different design than ST heads from China  :o !!  It is probably a series wound head and they are usually very good at starting motors.  It might be that it is just not possible to run your compresser.  Small generators have a hard time starting motors for many reasons  :P.  Good luck with the govenor changes, Listeroids all need a lot of help with their speed control, you usually have to live with some speed drop.  Someday I'd like to try making some heavier flyweights for mine to see if I can make it hold HZ better.                 Leland

Hi M61hops,

Thanks for the welcome, I really appreciate the wealth of info here.
The compressor really isn't the issue to me, it's just the nearest item I have that will draw a pretty good load. My issue is trying to get this generator so that I don't have two 110v legs but one 110v leg being able to use full output.

Having a hard time figuring is this is center tapped? as I'm sure you probably read in previous posts.

Seems the governor is responding much more quickly and isn't searching or anything, before it was just plain slow.

Would sure love to find a schematic for this gen-head or someone familiar with it and able to clue me in.

I really do appreciate all the great replys I've gotten too.

Thanks,
behoof
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 02:10:37 AM by behoof »

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2010, 02:09:38 AM »
Just a thought; What kind of belt drive do you have? I had belt slippage in some initial heavy load tests and it is not easy to see. If you had both tach. on the engine and the frequency meter you could spot it immediately. Otherwise  your volts and frequency would drop way off and your engine still perhaps not blacksmoke if the belts slipping.

If you are simply overloading the gen leg you are hooked to and the engine and drive is capable of more, you should see voltage drop but the frequency will still hold. Maybe the proper term for this is electrical saturation. I just came in from trying this on my setup. Took pictures of the K-O-Watt meter at no load and bogged down to near 6KW (ST5)  123V 62cps and 107-109 and 59-60 cps plus lots of black smoke. New camera and software to figure out though, before I can do the pictures.


Pics at http://s655.photobucket.com/home/Tijean_photo/recentuploads?page=2


Tijean,

Great pictures, thanks.

I've got a 3 groove pulley set and my belt is a new Gates with a common back. I don't see it slipping so I don't see that as an issue here.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2010, 07:25:19 PM by behoof »

NoSpark

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2010, 02:35:32 PM »
Quote
I'd also like to add that when I set this motor at 650rpm the frequency is at 65hz and now the volts is at 130V , I can adjust the resistor for that and it's now at 650rpm / 64-65hz / 128Volts ... when I fire up the turbo heater on it using a 50' extension cord it reads: 630rpm / 63hz / 122-123V ... and when starting the heater the rpm's responded pretty quickly actually.  Thoughts on this??

You'll have to stick with what ever rpm you get at 60-62 hz, thats fixed by the pulley sizes. If you don't have 650 rpm thats the way it is. I have an Anand 6/1(CMD) and a generator and pulley from a Metro dealer(Sam) so because the Metro flywheels are a bit bigger than the Anand flywheels I get 675 rpm @ 62hz and that's fine with me :). I have an old dial tach that's very accurate, what are you using to measure rpm?

Quote
I've got a 3 groove pulley set and my belt is a new Gates with a common back. I don't see it slipping so I don't see that as an issue here.

Do you have the belt on the smallest pulley? The bigger the gen pulley size the faster your engine will turn at 60hz. I would also think that the slower the engine speed the more lazy the governor will be.
Anand Powerline 6/1 ST5

behoof

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2010, 04:50:37 PM »
Quote
I'd also like to add that when I set this motor at 650rpm the frequency is at 65hz and now the volts is at 130V , I can adjust the resistor for that and it's now at 650rpm / 64-65hz / 128Volts ... when I fire up the turbo heater on it using a 50' extension cord it reads: 630rpm / 63hz / 122-123V ... and when starting the heater the rpm's responded pretty quickly actually.  Thoughts on this??

You'll have to stick with what ever rpm you get at 60-62 hz, thats fixed by the pulley sizes. If you don't have 650 rpm thats the way it is. I have an Anand 6/1(CMD) and a generator and pulley from a Metro dealer(Sam) so because the Metro flywheels are a bit bigger than the Anand flywheels I get 675 rpm @ 62hz and that's fine with me :). I have an old dial tach that's very accurate, what are you using to measure rpm?

Quote
I've got a 3 groove pulley set and my belt is a new Gates with a common back. I don't see it slipping so I don't see that as an issue here.

Do you have the belt on the smallest pulley? The bigger the gen pulley size the faster your engine will turn at 60hz. I would also think that the slower the engine speed the more lazy the governor will be.

NoSpark,

I use a Jaquet tachometer (one of the dial type >very accurate) and sure that I get accurate rpm readings.

I have a 3 pulley sheeve that came from Sam in Maine and the pulley OD's are 12" & 4" and I use a Gates 3 belt common back belt (new). Have proper alignment.

I've written Sam in Maine but haven't heard anything back as of yet (just emailed the other day) and was hoping he could shed some light on wether or not this generator is a center tap? and maybe he'd have a schematic of it (can't find one even on the internet - go figure huh) or be able to tell me HOW to parallel the 110 Volt outputs?

Heck maybe I should put together another 3 phase jenny alternator (like my wind jenny) and just use it.Just use the  Lister for battery charging, hay the guys in Colorado do it.  LOL >>NAH, don't think so ha ha ha. hmmmm although I could do it,

Anyway, sure would like to find a schematic or someone in the know on this (Metro / Glisten 4Kva / 2ph / 1800rpm) generator.

What generator do you have behind your Anand? I just sent an inquiry to POWER / ANAND two days ago. Got a reply but for some reason they didn't include their price lists for engines and gen's? I'm thinking I'd like to move up in power to run the barns and that end of the place too. Thinking a counter-balanced with a bit more power may be the way to go.

Thanks for the reply, hope to hear back,
behoof  aka Skipb

M61hops

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2010, 01:13:30 AM »
I had a 7.5KW Metro genset from Sam that had a 12HP Petteroid direct driving a Indian genhead.  I think all the Indian made genheads are series wound generators; all the load current flows through both the stator and rotor!  The diode groups form a full wave rectifier to keep DC flowing through the rotor so that it has constant North and South poles; also the more current you try to pull through the generator the higher the output voltage goes, within some design limits  ;) of course.  These generator heads are center tapped so you can have both 120 and 240, but I think you only get 1/2 the rated output at 120V  >:( !  They can't be rewired to get full output at 120V like a ST genhead as far as I know.  Of course I don't know anything for certain since I haven't seen your unit in person.  The genset I had worked very well, I could load it up very heavy and the output voltage just kept rising and it would start my compressor or swamp cooler even when overloaded but the Petteroid was blowing black smoke and the frequency dropped way down past where the Kill-o-Watt would give a reading.  The weak spot in these style genheads is the diodes, that's why they give you extras with the generator (you did get extras with yours, right?); I was always afraid of blowing a diode when overloading my generator for a test so I only did it a few times for short periods.  The diodes stayed cool to the touch as far as I could tell and they were in the airflow of the cooling fan.  Still I wonder what would happen if a diode was to fail and be a short?  Maybe this type diode never does fail into a short and just pops open?  I didn't want to find out so when a guy needed a generator in a hurry I sold the unit to him; the direct injection Petteroid was way too noisy for me to use in my neighborhood.  The Listeroid 6/1 is the least noisy diesel that I have ever heard so far  :) !  Leland
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

Doug

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Re: Metro 4Kva gen head 6/1 Metro
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2010, 02:03:02 AM »
In this aplication they fail and fry open.

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