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Author Topic: Vegie oils & conversions  (Read 14305 times)

sawmiller

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2006, 10:16:55 PM »
Hi Ken
Do you have any problems with carbon build up running wvo. I had quiet a bit of build up yesturday when i pulled the head. I have over 200 hrs on it.

regards

Tim

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2006, 11:08:39 PM »
As far as cold starting on vegie oil.  How about building a small single flue vertical boiler, like a heavy duty Kelly Kettle with a nipple at the top and bottom, and connect it into the cooling system.
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=54&pos=1

It is true, starting and shuting down on diesel or bio-d is a good idea. I don't know why one would have to switch when over "Under Load", I don't think it matters what the load is when the switch is made.

Ken Gardner
A load would pruge the system faster.  Other then that?
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« Last Edit: May 01, 2006, 11:19:20 PM by Andre Blanchard »
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GuyFawkes

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2006, 12:03:53 AM »
As far as cold starting on vegie oil.  How about building a small single flue vertical boiler, like a heavy duty Kelly Kettle with a nipple at the top and bottom, and connect it into the cooling system.
http://listerengine.com/coppermine/displayimage.php?album=54&pos=1


that would need two valves to work efficiently, and even then it's plumbed wrong, shorter flue, bottom of tank to bottom of flue, top of flue to bottom of block, top of block to top of tank
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
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Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Andre Blanchard

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2006, 12:32:40 AM »
that would need two valves to work efficiently, and even then it's plumbed wrong, shorter flue, bottom of tank to bottom of flue, top of flue to bottom of block, top of block to top of tank

In the gravity on this side of the puddle it will work just fine.

There probably should be a over temp pressure relief in the boiler loop in case the thermostat sticks shut.

Starting with the system cold the thermostat will be closed.
Start a fire and you will get a circulation up thru the boiler into the engine head, down thru the engine cylinder and back into the boiler.  The main cooling system will not be in the loop resulting in a faster warm up.

When the engine is up to temperature the thermostat will start to open and the upper pipe to the main cooling system will start warming up.  At that point you start the engine and let the fire die out. 

As the boiler cools below the temp of the engine the circulation path between the engine and boiler will reverse direction with a path up thru the thermostat and the main cooling system as needed.  If the heat loss from the boiler is too much wrap some insulation around it and close the draft.  Or if you want to stop it completely put a single valve at the top nipple on the boiler, but then you need to be there to close it after the wood fire dies out and the boiler cools to the point there is no chance of making steam with the circulation stopped.
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« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 12:34:47 AM by Andre Blanchard »
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akghound

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2006, 01:00:11 AM »
Hi Ken
Do you have any problems with carbon build up running wvo. I had quiet a bit of build up yesturday when i pulled the head. I have over 200 hrs on it.

regards

Tim

Yes, at first I did have carbon problems. I tried several ways to get around it but failed until I started using the Injection Line Heater. The trick is to get the WVO 180-200* at the injector. Secondly,Purge with diesel after each run, I add a haelthy dose of Diesel Service in the purge fuel (Gray container). I also have a 180* thermostate on the engine, I believe this helps as well. In fact I attempted to run without it when I was uaing a water pump, before thermosiphening, and the engine actually ran cooler and the carbon problem existed. All in all I believe the Injection Line Heater did more good then anything else.
Ken Gardner
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GuyFawkes

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2006, 01:01:16 AM »
that would need two valves to work efficiently, and even then it's plumbed wrong, shorter flue, bottom of tank to bottom of flue, top of flue to bottom of block, top of block to top of tank

In the gravity on this side of the puddle it will work just fine.

There probably should be a over temp pressure relief in the boiler loop in case the thermostat sticks shut.

Starting with the system cold the thermostat will be closed.



ah, I _looked_ at that drawing and saw a tee, not a thermostat.

just don't get this idea of thermostats on tank cooling.... oh well

will make an appointement for new glasses and an eye test this week.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Ironworks

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2006, 02:08:24 AM »
I talk to some guys who run veggie in their vehicles and they are realy cautious about getting the oil too hot because this makes it lose its lubrication qualities.....cant be good for a diesel engine

mjn

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2006, 06:08:57 PM »
Ken is using heaters on his injector lines after the injector pump.

The concern about overheating the veggie oil causing lack of lubrication relates to the injector pump.   After the injector pump, there is not a great need for lubrication for the injector.

When the injector line heaters first hit the scene, there was a heated discussion on the infopop forum about the potential downsides.  At that time, the fear was that heating the injector lines could cause the oil to polymerize and lead to clogged injectors.

At this point, I think those fears have been dispelled.

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Andre Blanchard

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2006, 07:00:10 PM »
ah, I _looked_ at that drawing and saw a tee, not a thermostat.
It's not exactly to scale.:)

Quote
just don't get this idea of thermostats on tank cooling.... oh well
Mostly to get the engine up to operating temp as fast as possible and hold a more constant temp over varying loads.  Not really needed it the engine is to be run for long periods.  But in my case the engine is to be used mostly to run shop tools and some AC on the hot days, so it will likely be started and run for a few hours and shut down for a day or two.
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akghound

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2006, 04:07:46 PM »
I talk to some guys who run veggie in their vehicles and they are realy cautious about getting the oil too hot because this makes it lose its lubrication qualities.....cant be good for a diesel engine


Is the loss of  lubrication a problem with HOT Vegetable oil like it is withHOT Diesel? I didn't realize that VO lost it's lubricating properties with heat.

Re: Wood fired boiler ... Good idea, especially for the  cold climates.
However this would not get the combustion chamber up to operation temperatures so even if the VO was heated as well as the block the VO would not burn correctly for the first few minutes. Would this be a big problem? I really don't know but I don't think it is a good idea to burn VO in a cold condition. How long does it take for the combustion chamber to get to full operating temps? It seems like I need to run mine a few minutes before it is capable of full power out put on diesel. I believe that the best bet is to start on diesel then switch over after everything is up to operating temp.
Ken Gardner
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 04:20:53 PM by akghound »
One Day At A Time
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Listeroid Generator on WVO / Living off grid

Ironworks

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2006, 04:43:11 AM »
I have been told not to let the VO get over 200F.  Ideally you want it between 160 and 190.  The reason for heating the oil is to change the viscosity so it can go through the injector properly.

mjn

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2006, 05:40:18 PM »
I have been told not to let the VO get over 200F. ....

160-180F should be the target for VO entering the injector pump.  At that temp VO behaves like diesel around freezing (See the frybrid viscosity chart http://www.frybrid.com/svo.htm)  Getting it hotter than that at best is a waste of effort because the IP acts as a heat sink and cools the VO to 160-180.  At worst, high temps can damage the IP.

The optimum temperature after the IP is a whole other story.  When injector line heaters wre first introduced, there was a huge flamewar on the infopop forum about how they would either cause problems or be a total waste of effort.   

The people who claimed that it would be a waste of effort pointed to the huge heat sink in the form of the injector bolted to a huge chunk of metal.  They claimed that the VO would get heated/cooled to head temperature regardless of what temperature it entered the injector.   In response, the proponents pointed out that their engines ran better, did not get all carboned up, and had fewer hydrocarbon emissions when running with the heaters on.

Other people were concerned that the heaters would cause coking and/or polymerization in the injector lines. Injector line heaters are still fairly new, but to date, there have be no reports of damage caused by the heaters.

Personally I think there is valid concern about overheating the VO, but I don't think that becomes an issue until you get it over 300F.  (My reasoning is that this stuff sits all day in fryers at 350F without coking or polymerizing).  I know for certain, that injecting cold VO will cause problems, so I went with the line heater to ensure that I can't inject cold VO.
Changfa 195 7.5 kw ST.  WVO conversion http://martin.nile.googlepages.com/
Metro 6/1 DI Listeroid. Pumping water for fire control.
1933 Stover CT-1 hit and miss
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dkwflight

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2006, 03:08:34 AM »
Hi The typical deep fryer in a food establishment is set at 350 degrees. Peanut oil can stand much higher temps. which is why chinese cookeries use it. I don't think the oil is harmed or changed purely by tempreture. Oxidation possibly but the oil in a line is not exposed to much oxygen.
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JohnF13

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2006, 01:00:45 AM »
My buddy and I have about 10,000 hours experience on WVO in several engines, longest running one has over 4,500 hours on it.  We collect our oil from local restaurants and try to get it in cubies or metal pails.  When I get mine home I pour it into an old bulk milk tank through a kitchen strainer, this gets the BCB's out (Burned Crispy Bits).  The tank holds about 300 gallons, when it gets near to full I heat the oil up to about 160F.  I open the bottom drain on the tank and allow any water to run out (not much if any when you can get good oil).  After that I draw the oil off from the top through a 3/4hp pump and into a settling tank.  Before it goes into that tank it is strained through a fleece blanket.  I leave it in the settling tank for a day or two then transfer it (again, draw off the top) to my holding tanks (I have three, each holding about 250 gallons).  I draw off from the holding tanks (yep, from the top) when I need to refill my fuel tanks in the engine room.  I have three 20 gallon fuel tanks, two have WVO in them and the third has BioD for starting and stopping.  I use two WVO tanks so I can fill the one that is not being used, so if there is any sediment left it can settle before the fuel is used.  The only other filter I have is a 150 micron in-line in the fuel line leading to the engine.  (I strip off all the stock fuel filters).

Neither of us have had any prblems using this system.  We de-coke when the engines ask us to, usually around 2,000 hours.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

sawmiller

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Re: Vegie oils & conversions
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2006, 02:12:04 PM »
Hi John

I was wondering if you used any inj line heaters for wvo. and also if you have run a di head engine on wvo ,  as i have a 6.5 metro that i have about ready to bring online. The Metro is really smooth running.

 Regards
Tim