Author Topic: Climate Warming a hoax?  (Read 200357 times)

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #135 on: December 25, 2009, 06:30:00 PM »
Gee Doug, your workers paradise has been tried and found wanting. USSR, East Germany, Cuba, Vietnam, North Korea... ummm see a pattern here?

And how does that relate to the Climate Warming Hoax?

It all relates Andrew...

And it's a warning if you read that post change what we have and how we use what we have or will learn the lessons of the past as the wheel turns again.

Cap and Trade = Ration Card and line up
Or do we want to get out of the Hampster wheel and find another way......

YUM YUM ITS A BEAUTIFUL FREAKING WORLD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr6Wwb6Std0&feature=related
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 07:25:36 PM by Doug »
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t19

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #136 on: December 26, 2009, 02:56:43 AM »
Ok Stan, I might have had too much Bailey's in my coffee but what are you on about???  People are corrupt...well duh, there was only one perfect man, and he had a crappy Easter Weekend.  I would rather live in the illusion of democracy an Freedom than know that the world sucks in a Communist / Socialist world... at least in this, our system, there is the hope that I will do better than my parents

Doug I agree with you on Cap and Trade, I do not think that will work, but I would like us in the west to become more Pro Western, and keep our "cleanned up" heavy industry here

BTW Ronald McDonald has one hot daughter
There is plenty of room for all of Gods creatures... right next to the mashed potatoes...

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #137 on: December 26, 2009, 06:33:36 PM »
Happy Wrestling day.....

Andrew it sure would be nice to keep our heavy industry all cleaned up and profitable but I don't think its going t happen. We may keep the bricks and mortar but we won't keep the jobs.

The machine the little guy from Shawinigan was supposedly operating was actually have a nervous break down that day. A chum of mioe retired now was actually hiding around a pillar out of sight running it manually. Eventually the machine did run sort of but this particular scoop now rests comfortably in the garage at 6000 level only ever run with an operator.
The promiss of new technology to create jobs making these machines never happened. Much of the work was out sourced, most of the technology was shelved.

http://www.republicofmining.com/2009/07/06/sudburys-high-tech-mining-mania-by-stan-sudol/

"Prime Minister Chretien is no stranger to the region’s high-tech mining industry.  In a 1994 visit, he was photographed operating an underground robotic scoop tram at Inco’s North Mine while on the surface many kilometres away."

But the promiss of a machine smart enough to do a man's job with a minimum of supervision from an unskilled ( low wage ) operator at a remote location ( could be a telemarketer skill level in a Toronto or even Rio ) has not been forgotten.

There is little or no justification for high wage jobs in the new economy I the technology exists to automate and outsource them. This is something I just can't drill into people's heads.....
I built the control package for that Scoop!
The technology was not ready however because a Pentium 1 processor running the crude and clumsy software of the day would fail at some point in a shift.

But we are so close now....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wgyGglytKg&feature=related
These play a dull game of soccor but they have the technological sophistication to muck a round. I wonder how long before they have the sophistication to do other things like clean a road, move suplies, scale, drill and bolt a heading ect.

Just one example but we don't make this type of technology here in the nickel city or Canada for that matter and even if we did it will not offset the numbers of workers it displaces. We all know technology drop's in costs every year right so how can people performing a task in competition with technology ever expect anything but less and less wages and a lower standard of living. The fellow in the third world will also face the same challenges how can he ever rise above the level of a disposable implement if his wages increase to the point he must compete with automation.

How will government respond?
Loosen the rules health, safety, job security and pollution to keep out brick and mortar competitive with the 3rd world?

Here is the facts there is not enough of anything to go around for 6 billion people
The only way to compete in the new economy is slash the costs you can control such as wages.

So our jobs are disappearing and I challenge you to show me any signs of new growth in the past 20 years that has stopped the slow rot in our economies as our good jobs disappear. We can't keep the wealth here without fixing the game to exploit workers in the third world by shipping them our dirty jobs at poverty wages. We can't stem the tide of wealth fleeing the country to invest in low wage countries. We have no way to produce enough energy and raw materials to raise 6 billion people to our standard of living even if we burned out and ripped up every scrap we have in the world to make enough widgets.

And if all that was not enough we have the spector of technology producing more than we can buy but no system in place that can evenly distribute the necessities of life even if we all accepted the idea of a 2/3 decline in our western standard of living in order to raise everyone else up to our level. By that I mean we have no economic system in place that can redistribute the wealth in a society where we have more have nots than haves that is fair.
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #138 on: December 26, 2009, 06:44:26 PM »
My prediction is we get the lines and ration cards in Canada those on the top will pay what ever is needed to keep us under control.
They have too many guns in the USA for people to except rationing so I have no idea where that will lead.
There will be riots in places where they simply can't control the masses and feed them.


The climate will take care of itself as our energy production drops or cool rapidly ( nuclear winter ).


Smile if you own guns and can fix things odds are you will make it....
 ;D
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SteveU.

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #139 on: December 26, 2009, 08:49:14 PM »
Folks this has all happened before many times. Egyptians, Greece, Rome, China (several times), Great Britain three times most recently right before the North Sea oil wealth rush.
Rapid social/economic changes led by technology shifts and markets flooded by cheaper out of country imports raw AND manufactured materials and labor. EG: US and later Canadian cheap wheat onto the world markets in the 1870's-1914. Cheap colonial wheat and slave labor flooding Rome, and foreign smart hungry merchants and trades men displacing established workers. Sound familia? Good for the Haves, the New Rich; but hell on the native born.
Solutions are have all been tried and experienced. Bread and circuses, great labor absorbing public works projects, labor intensive wars, polarization and stratification of societies into Have and Have-nots. The Haves employing and paying for personal security forces. Western civilization in the 1200-1700's. Adaptation can be slow and somewhat controlled, or, rapid and brutal. With our pace of life now, well?? I haven't been seeing too many people waking up and hoeing a garden yet.

Yes good time knowing how to fix real everyday needed things. Good time to know how to supply your own basic needs for food, shelter clothing and energy.
Pretty much why we are most here , eh?

Guns?? I have guns. I have used guns to kill now too many times. Had blood on my hands just this last week. Means that this time my just being a gun owner failed to keep the respect and peace. So far in a civil society that is what they are best for. Past that utility I consider my guns as means to survive a failure. . . . and that never puts a smile on my face.

Regards,
American SteveU.

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Stan

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #140 on: December 26, 2009, 09:18:23 PM »
at least in this, our system, there is the hope that I will do better than my parents



I agree that we all hope this, and in a few ways maybe we have succeeded, but economically, we have failed in this miserably, unless you are in the top 1% of the income earners in Canada.  btw...this isn't just my opinion, it's in stats Canada's figures on income.

Who's daughter is hot?????    Maybe I'd better have another rum & coke.
Stan

Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #141 on: December 26, 2009, 09:29:44 PM »
With all due respect Steve I don't think you get it at all.

I am in the Automation buisness and I didn't see and understand what was happening for nearly 20 years. The pace of shange is happening faster than than we can retrain people to do other things. By the time we do retrain a blue collar worker for a Job that pays a decent wage that job has changed to where a new workers skills are not marketable or there is a wash of people already invading that sector to the point wages have eroded.

Who is going to invest 2 or 3 years training and lets say 25,000 only to find out that job only pays about 25,000 with stagnant ( at best )wage gains for the future.

The last rescession was a warm up we had ecconomic growth and no real jobs for very long time. Employers learned improved productivity was cheaper than expanding the workforce. Now eventualy people did find new jobs but 1 bread winner family that becomes a 2 bread winner family with mom at Walmart and dad driving a truck or working in construction is not the same even if they have regained the spending power they lost. Obviously we found out with the housing buble people were buying on credit and that sector collapsed as an example. The high tech buble before that provoed we can't employ Milions of people in a sector that doesn't actulay make anything or produce proffits ( and the high tech sector moved to India anyhow ).

Yes like the Industrial revolution in the begining Skilled jobs were replaced by factory jobs that paid less. But a combination of improved productivity and higher wages gave rose to mass consumption and mass production.
What we have here is a case of mass over production, declining wages, technologivcal displacement and an ever increasing rate of change that no worker can reasonably be expected to adapt too.

Once a job or carreer lasted you might change jobs a few times but you you never realy changed your basic skill set. Now your skills have to change every 5 years or less. You must learn new skills pay off the debts incurred and make a living then retool and start over and still not fall into debt.

I'm a good electrician, but I can't keep up with the rapid change in Machinery just in my trade. Retrain 10,000 men to do what I do, depress wages by increasing the labour pool and see how many people drop out of the trade and how quickly you can't find a specialist like me. I am expected to do everything from wire wall plugs to trouble shoot a giant marine electric propulsion system for a ship. I'm not a salor ( never worked in naval electrcial system ) so I need to work at it for an extended period of time. Then I am awash in new retrained people who only know that. Then the next piece of technology from something no one ever expected is grafted into my little industrial plant and everyone scratches their heads.

Wages don't reflect what one knows but rather what one does. Obscolete skills are worthless. redundant workers are worthless. Retraining for jobs that don't last is not cost effective.
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SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #142 on: December 27, 2009, 02:19:52 AM »
Doug the Luddite.
Well I guess we all are at least after turning 40 or so.
You previous post about automation is pointing to the heart of the matter, almost like the opening lines to "The Terminator".
The Renaissance occurred after the plague swept Europe, (which was after the Mini Ice Age?). So many people died that there just was not enough brute labor to get everything done. So levers and machines were invented.
Now we have automation, and much of the labor will no longer be required. Surplus people.
The world can support 6 billion people. There just is not enough productive work for them to do. And we all know that Idle hands stuff.....
So I read about economic models that are supposed to tax (cap & trade) the rich nations to fund and establish productivity in poor nations so the quality of life will go up and birth rates will go down.
Now that's what I call a planned economy. It would need a global government to force it.
I guess it's the new way now that every one is afraid of an atomic war.
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #143 on: December 27, 2009, 04:15:10 AM »
The labour movement dropped the ball in the 60s in the auto plants when the first CNC machines and computers started to show up.

Its not about retraining because you can't retrain people for jobs that don't yet exist in a future you can't see. And nearly any repetitive task has the potential to be deskilled, simplified and automated. The speed at which this is going to start to happen VERY shortly will absolutely blow your fucking minds. Pardon my language but its another one of my tipping points I see not more than 5-10 years out the dawn of the workless factory is almost here.

Am I a Luddite?
No but we have totally failed to consider a future that can not continue to grow because of resource and capital restrictions

If we had taken the right steps in the 60s and moved to a pension system that invested in our employers.
Included fair and real profit sharing index wages in place of strike/wage demands claw backs.
If we had turned our productivity gains into free time like a 30 hour work week.
If we had moved to a system of consumption taxes that rewarded people for saving and fixing instead of spending and throwing out.
Turned things like Welfare in " Volunteer fair " and rewarded the weakest and move vulnerable in our society with a social wage for helping improve everyones lives.

There is a lot of things that need doing in our society we have no conventional way of paying for. Things done by church groups and volunteers that should be considered work because they generate wealth but are not because they are done for free. But we have no system to reward people for this and this should be considered an important part of the economy.

We can't go backwards, technology held the promiss to make our lives better reduce waste and suffering. But we didn't think about how to get there we never planned for it.

The machines are not the problem WE are.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AY09DJkQMY
Well if we had done these things we would not be in such a state of shock now when things go into convulsions
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SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #144 on: December 27, 2009, 06:24:53 AM »
I love Metropolis, and it was far ahead of it's time.
I'm not too sure how much you can read into tho-
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Doug

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #145 on: December 27, 2009, 04:47:44 PM »

No its just a cool movie.

It doesn't illustrate any of my point other than the worker as a disposable implement. But like to day the capatalists at the top do not understand the effects of their technology on the workers. They are even horified to discover their workers are not happy but rather have become apathetic parts of the machines.

And I really dig the Moloch machine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNPyrVaC2LM&feature=related
Perhaps some interesting insights into earlier parts of the technological revolution. Frizt Lang could not predict the computer or they way mass information would empower workers. But he did seem to understand how it would create class of leaders insulated from reality
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apogee_man

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #146 on: December 27, 2009, 05:56:02 PM »
it has been the motto of the liberals for what seems like forever

"create the crisis, provide the solution"

when you ascribe to that modus operandi, you stand to make millions, billions and if you do a really good job "trillions" of dollars.

to these folks "government" much like a hammer see's every problems as a nail.

hard for me to see government as anything other than a framing hammer just waiting to tenderize my thumb.

bob g

Yeah, kind of like GW did with Iraq...

Collectively we need to lose the repub/lib mentality as it's a complete waste of time.  Both parties are now the same and it's all a big charade.  Ever heard of divide and conquer?  We've bought into it hook line and sinker with the repub/lib mentality and it's why the sleazoids in power have been able to remain there. 

I've written about this before.

Steve

SteveU.

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #147 on: December 27, 2009, 05:59:30 PM »
Hey Doug,
I love you like a brother, man.
Excellent post speaking from the standpoint of a skilled tradesmen.
You have accurately described my own three trades careers investment, training and burn outs to a Tee. All obsolete and redundant now, employing less people at minimal wages.
The last I began in 1999 at nearly 50 years old to become a Master Automobile Technician. Did it too. Took five years. An initial 2000+ hours then an annual 500+ hours a year in learning/training. An initial investment of $16,000 in tools and then at least an annual $5,000 tool investment a year, each and every year to advance and try to keep up.
Problem was by 2005 mine and all other auto tech/mechs earnings were declining annually, new guys were being 9-10 month minimal wages burnt out and  and I with the new sales end team approach was being forced to be the torch burning them out. I could earn 60% of an 80's, 90's wage IF I was willing to work one journeyman and two burn out  "apprentices" slaves in actuality below me. Yeah, did that for as long as I could stomach it.  I finally puked and John Gaul walked away along with many others. Good luck getting your 2001-07 purchased pride and joy repaired now that you cannot afford  new anymore.
And All because the normal automotive business 8% annual investment/replacement cycle had been screwed up after  the Al-Kydia attacks in 2001 to a 12% pace.
To "Save our Economy" our President unleashed the Lions of finance and the manufacturing robots were cranked up producing too many cars. Why repair? Just buy new. Everybody involved did more and more for less and less. By 2005 there were 100,000's of thousand LESS auto workers making more and more cars. Want to earn a living wage then? Go into housing construction. Go into Sales. Well that bubble has popped now too.
With all of the borrowed and false printed money flooding the economy of course people went on a buying binge.
I saw it in most of my friends, relatives and neighbors around me. Only the older ones like my self having lived through "hard times" of rationing, shortages, double digit inflation and stagflation knew and showed a little restraint with all of these new cheap shiny goodies dangled before them.

You see Doug I actually agree with you. Normal pace of reinvestment and change in most all areas have been exceeded. Why invest just to lose?
Our governments repeated the same mistakes of the 1920's and the 60's.
This is where we do differ: Governments as much as other external factors Create these shortsighted instabilities.  They should be the governor of these up and down swings Not the creators. This is Why every one of these civilizations eventually over matured aged out and collapsed.

Always back to the same - I and my family have winter heat, food on our table and cloths on my back because I made these things happen; not the Guild, not the Union and certainly NOT my government.
Tthis is the same as happened to all of those same craft/trades men in all of those civilizations I listed when things spun out of control too.
Those who set aside their no longer needed specialized skills and got back to supping their own basic needs survived and did ok. Be the same today. Just add a little more self made power now.

Regards
SteveU.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 06:11:40 PM by SteveU. »
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apogee_man

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #148 on: December 27, 2009, 06:15:50 PM »
I've posted this before, but based on where this thread is at, I believe a reminder is in order.

I would strongly, strongly recommend all here take the time to watch the Crash Course.

Also, read about Chris Martenson, as he approaches this stuff from the most neutral perspective that I'm aware of. 

Well worth the time imho!

Steve

Crash Course http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

mobile_bob

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Re: Climate Warming a hoax?
« Reply #149 on: December 27, 2009, 06:32:30 PM »
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info