Author Topic: Lister attempts escape!  (Read 20572 times)

cricco

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Lister attempts escape!
« on: October 12, 2009, 09:49:58 PM »
So I got my Lister Metro 16/1 today. I spent a few hours going through it, and making sure it didn't have any sand in it. Then I decided to fire it up, while bolted to the pallet. OH BOY! Once I got her started, she decided to dance her way right out the garage door! I was able to apprehend her before she got on the next freighter back to India. However, I'm going to need to spend some serious energy and thought coming up with a way to mount this thing. Once it got going, it smoothed out a lot, but still dances around a lot. I'm thinking that I may need to pour a boncrete block inside my garage to mount this thing. What a project this will be!

SteveU.

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 384
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 11:15:11 PM »
Welcome cricco
If you do decide to block mount this figure on an at least 2200 pound concrete block isolated NOT jest sitting on your concrete floor. Otherwise you will just be transferring the vibrations. Yeah, have to cut and jackhammer a hole.

For resilient mounting ideas on these big singles look here:
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4547.15
Read the whole thing and you can watch a youtube to see you are not the only one caught by surprise.

Regards
SteveU.

Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

Stan

  • Guest
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 01:59:41 AM »
First read the archives about the "mr X balancing method".  Try the simplest stuff first.
Stan

cricco

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2009, 04:27:35 PM »
I did a search, but cannot find the "Mr. X" method. Can someone help me out with a link?

Stan

  • Guest
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2009, 04:50:45 PM »
I'll fill you in on the basics, it's easier than searching. 

First put the mounted engine on something that will allow it to move a little.  If your engine is just moving a little maybe put the whole thing on round pipes to allow it to move back and forth when running.  If it's more "active" maybe just put it on some soft rubber mounts.

Then fix a stick with a piece of chalk on it to a fixed mount (5 gal pail full of rocks?) at the exact height of the main shaft.

Then spin the engine, preferably not with compression (electric motor?)  up to approximate speed

Then move the chalk in to a point where it just touches the outside of the flywheel.

This will make a mark on the flywheel (it will be maybe several inches long) where the engine has moved toward the chalk. This will indicate the "heavy" side of the flywheels.  Mount weights opposite this mark on both flywheels . Use weights that are put inside the flywheel, preferably soft like putty or something.  Weigh them so you know how much you are using.

Repeat procedure until engine is smooth.

Anybody else don't hesitate to chime in here, I may have forgotten something.  I did that once or twice, I think, maybe.
Stan

toydiesel01

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2009, 07:15:02 PM »
Welcome C. I have a metro 16/1  so maybe I can help you a little .  First thing turn down the govenor some\, mine came in the crate cranked to the max. I had the same experience with the dancing, the wooden pallet is not meant for starting ( I can tell you from experience ) for after I made a heavy metal frame and mounted the engin , I was very much suprized to see how smooth my engin ran  NEEDS A GOOD FRAME.  I had turned down my govenor before starting , so I didn't have an over speed issue thank god\!   But you really need to have it mounted to a frame , seems like the pallet adds more spring to it some how.  I was scared to try to start it again after my first time but again the frame makes all the difference.
bob f

Tijean

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 208
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 11:01:54 PM »
The chalk mark method has problems unless the flywheels outside surface is very close to true. The indications I got were counter productive for me. I made a mandrel and bearings that were free enough to indicate the heavy spot (1000 rpm internal counterweight) and I made some improvement by setting the bare unatached wheels to a static balance. I have tried further to add or subtract externally to the internal counterweight but that only trades back and forth between hop or slide. The next time I have a reason to have the flywheels off, my tire shop is willing to put them on his tire balancer and see what it says. No good for externally ballanced engines though.
Frank

10/1 Jkson, ST5 gen. head

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 11:02:55 PM »
I totally agree with Bob f.
You absolutely need to know what speed the engine is turning. My 25/2 governor was set to full RPM at Full Load, so when I started mine on some blocks of dunnage, it started walking and spinning at the same time!
Make your frame first. mount your generator, etc. untill the weight of everything is in place.
Then start your engine at a slow speed. Then slowly increase the speed. Use a photo tachometer to observe the RPM.
You will notice right away that single cylinder engines have smooth RPMs and RPMs that they want to hop around.
Note the smooth RPM range. Mine was about 940 RPM, getting twitchy at 1000 RPM, and WILD at 1005 RPM.
I ended up using a pulley that has my engine running at about 735 RPM, not the smoothest, but very good.
I tried stick on wheel weights inside the flywheel rims, I even cast a big chunck of lead in once. Twins are alot more difficult to ballance. Be glad you got a single.
Anyway, the pulley you select will set the RPM the engine must run to maintain 60 cycles (or 50 cycles depending where you are)
So select a pulley size that has the engine running in it's smooth RPM range. That might be slightly de-rated, but I found that I liked the engine running at 735 better that 1000, and the safety factor (overseed) is welcome too.
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

cricco

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2009, 01:14:17 AM »
Thanks for all the advice guys. I've been trying to figure out what size pulley I need so I can order one. I was told that an 11 1/2" is what I need. But for $199.00 I want to be sure.

Stan

  • Guest
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2009, 02:24:11 AM »
Everything you might possibly need to know.  http://www.gizmology.net/pulleysbelts.htm
 ;D
Stan

Quinnf

  • Rest in peace
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 645
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2009, 08:32:43 PM »
Thanks for all the advice guys. I've been trying to figure out what size pulley I need so I can order one. I was told that an 11 1/2" is what I need. But for $199.00 I want to be sure.

$199 seems pretty high.  You might want to check www.surpluscenter.com

Quinn
Ashwamegh 6/1, PowerSolutions 6/1 "Kit" engine, and a Changfa R175a that looks like a Yanmar I once knew

Cowboy Billy

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Britton, Michigan
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2009, 03:13:32 PM »
Hey I did the same thing with my 14-1

I posted this in the listeroid form under Dancing with the lister. Not trying to steal you thread. But I thought you might want to see my engine mount on air bags. It bounces 3-4 inches on startup but is smooth once it is up to speed. But I haven't tried it under a load yet.

Quote
Dancing with the lister

You're probably wondering what up with the silly title of this post. Well it goes back to when I first got my 14-1 lister. My brother had a 6-1 and he started it up on the pallet for me and I thought it was great! But I did not feel it had enough power for what I wanted. So he found the 14-1 powersolutions lister. It took the normal forever to un crate it. And even though I was told not to start it on the pallet I could not wait to hear it. So after I opened it up and cleaned it out I started it on the shipping pallet. After all my brother had no problems with it. I was a little afraid of it and it took me 4-5 spin ups before I got it over the compression stroke. On the fourth chuff it started lifting the pallet off the ground. So I grabbed the fuel shut off and flipped it. But the engine did not slow down. My first thought was that it was hung up so I flipped back on then off again. About the third time I did this I noticed it got quieter when I flipped it off and I realized that I had 300lbs of flywheel spinning and its not just going to come to a stop like a car :o Well the floor in my old garage is cracked and broke up and not at all level. And when all this was done I had chased it six feet across the garage floor. I was telling some of my friends about it and one of the older guys on my farmall cub tractor site always wants to come out and in his words Dance with the Lister.

My younger brother runs a lazer pattern burner at work and was able to putin a personal project slip and make me custom engine and generator plate.



Lister engine setup with air bag suspension



My youngest brother made the serpentine belt pulley for the generator. And the engine runs about 975 rpm at 60hz



A bunch of people wanted to see it so I took it to one of our farmall cub only tractor shows. I am trying to use a 12v starter generator to start it with. But right not it does not have enough power unless I have a battery charger on it.
14-1 powersolutions lister 12kv st generator head
11 years operating heavy equ.
Hobbies
old farmall tractors, Horses, Jonsered chainsaws, anything to do with being self sufficient and playing in the woods.

Amarbir[India]

  • Indianlisteroid
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
    • View Profile
    • The indian Listeroid
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2010, 06:50:23 PM »
Everything you might possibly need to know.  http://www.gizmology.net/pulleysbelts.htm
 ;D
Stan

Woo ,
 stan That Was Really Neat Thank You  .
Regards

Amarbir Singh Dhillon [ www.indianlisteroid.com ]
Indian Listers - Research ,Repair And Spares

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2010, 10:11:11 PM »
The chalk mark method has problems unless the flywheels outside surface is very close to true. The indications I got were counter productive for me. I made a mandrel and bearings that were free enough to indicate the heavy spot (1000 rpm internal counterweight) and I made some improvement by setting the bare unatached wheels to a static balance. I have tried further to add or subtract externally to the internal counterweight but that only trades back and forth between hop or slide. The next time I have a reason to have the flywheels off, my tire shop is willing to put them on his tire balancer and see what it says. No good for externally ballanced engines though.

Good point.  A quick check with a dial indicator can tell you how true your wheel surface is running.  If it is really out of true, this could be your whole problem, as a flywheel not spinning at it's center could cause a real out of balance indication..  This can be caused by an improperly fitted Gib key.

One issue that can effect your chalk/MR X results is how the engine is allowed to move during the tests.  If it can wobble at all, this will convert back and forth motion into rotation and really mess with the results.  I would HIGHLY reccomend that you build the sub frame for the engine/generator first before attempting balance measurements.  That way you can place the whole frame up onto small pipe rollers to help it to only move in one axis(fore-aft).  This is how I did my 6/1, with the generator mounted on the frame, and the frame setting up on 3/4" rods on the garage floor.  Setup like this, I could push the whole 1000 LB assembly with the tip of my finger.  I attached some tie downs loosly to it to control how far it could possibly move.

Another issue you need to consider with the chalk is the lag in motion caused by the high weight that is being accelerated and decelerated by the imbalance.  What happens is the heaviest part of the flywheel is already spinning past the fixed chalk when the movement of the whole assembly brings the flywheel into contact with the chalk.  Because of this, the proper place to add counter weight is not directly opposite of the chalk.  The heavier weight of your engine and the higher RPM will make this effect greater.  The MR-X method got me in the ballpark, but what really allowed me to refine the balance on my 6/1 was using a 1" travel dial indicator($7-$8 at Harborfreight tools) attached to a fixed point on the floor.  This allowed me to measure the total distance of movement, then by trial and error, i was able to add/move weight and reduce the movement of the frame on the rollers till I had it down around .015" total movement.  I ran it under load still on the rollers, and didn't have that much more movement at 2.5KW on the genarator...

Good Luck.
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

vtmetro

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
    • View Profile
Re: Lister attempts escape!
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2010, 04:40:54 AM »
I'm a little confused here. Why are we balancing fore and aft instead of up and down? The piston is moving up and down. The flywheels have balance webs that are (I thought) supposed to counteract the vertical reciprocating weight of the piston and rod. Because these counterweights rotate rather than reciprocate like the piston, they will naturally create fore and aft movement if the engine is unrestrained in this direction. Putting the engine on rollers will show this up. But fore and aft movement would be expected, wouldn't it?

I don't see how we can balance both ways. If we reduce the fore and aft movement to zero, we would have to remove the counterweights and make the flywheels themselves balanced, wouldn't we? Then the engine would be unbalanced vertically. That's where the real pounding takes place, isn't it?

So, shouldn't we be placing our chalk on top of the flywheel not in front of it. And shouldn't the engine be restrained horizontally on vertically springy mounts to check the balance --- the proper amount and location of flywheel counterweights to compensate for the piston and rod?