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Author Topic: Rebuilding old genhead----  (Read 5919 times)

hotater

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Rebuilding old genhead----
« on: April 22, 2006, 04:53:39 PM »
 First off I'll say this for all concerned. I  don't understand the first thing about electricity.  I have five generator here and when one breaks it's broke for good.  I have no idea how they work...pure magic.  I assume the 'stator' stays put and the 'rotor' rotates.

I dug up a Westinghouse No 1 open frame, genhead with slip rings and brushes.  The spec plate is gone and I have no idea what it actually *is*, only that it probably was used with a Dusseldorf Triumph engine at MHS in years past to generate electricity.  I'd *like* to be able to use it sometime in the future after restoring an engine for it but it's just a three hundred pounds of frozen up copper and iron right now.

Is it *possible* (forget economic for a minute) to have this head re-wound for usable power?  Is this something a local re-wind shop might be able to do?  What do I ask for?  What might be possible?  What do I look for?  If it's DC now does that pre-clude re-winding to something else? (actually I don't care whether DC or AC)

It's old American cast iron with brass oil cups and it's just too beautiful not to have working.    ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Jim Mc

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2006, 05:19:06 PM »
If it has true slip rings (as opposed to a commutator) it's an AC machine.  Are you sure it's a generator?  Old AC induction motors of the 'wound rotor' style had slip rings, too.  But they don't have a field structure to use for an AC generator.  Can you post a picture?

« Last Edit: April 22, 2006, 07:15:05 PM by Jim Mc »

hotater

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2006, 05:23:47 PM »
The foreign language barrier between mechanic and electrics is too much for me.  :o
   I'll take and post pictures later today from all angles.

  Thanks,  just what I was looking for, so-far.  ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

dkwflight

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2006, 04:53:04 PM »
Hi  On fireing up an old generator.
Find some one with an electrical meter called a "Megger". This piece of equipment is suposed to check insulation quality in motors etc. If the winding check good with an ordinary meter- no shorts to ground etc. Check with the megger to establish weather the gen head would be safe to run.
I talked to some people who were renovating an old water turbine gen set. They heated the windings by wireing a light bulb into the circut to gently warm the windings. They kept the bulb lit for weeks. This process baked the moisture out of the insulation. The Megger readings improved quite a bit and they were able to use the original windings in service.
Once a gen set can be put in service the heat generated by use will keep the windins and insulation dry.
You may have to turn the gen to see what it actually produces. A man with some generater experience should be able figure out what was intended. I have seen an old ac motor that had a commutator(slotted ring and brushes) For high starting tourque.
Good Luck
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

Doug

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2006, 03:06:54 AM »
Get me some pictures Hoater, and measure the distance between the feet, the size of the shaft and I'll tell yo what you have. And yes this can be rewound to anything in the 240 range down you may need.

This is not rocket science, you could wind this yourself if needed. GO AND FIND THAT BOOK I TOLD YOU PEOPLE ABOUT from the US navy electric motor and generator service manual.

Doug

hotater

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2006, 05:32:00 AM »
I didn't forget the pictures, they're took, but suddenly the software to DL to the computer is not compatible with XP ...blah blah.... Ill get it figured out soon.

I'm assuming it's a generator because there's no way to run a motor that big down here without a generator even bigger!  There's no need for large motors in a place with no power.

I have about the same  understanding and ambition to re-wind a  genhead as I do  attending a Voodoo picnic with  slitting rooster's throats and dancing in the moonlight the main recreation.
    I  just    D o n ' t    get  the connection of electricity to the Universe of mechanics, hydraulics, and pneumatic machinery.  I've not yet read an anology that can get electricity understanding to stick around more than a flash once in a while.....there are some things I will hire done...... rewinding genheads and tooth filling are two of them.    ;)
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2006, 03:09:18 AM »
My friend you don't need to understand electromagnetics to fix things....

Get me some pictures and some measurements and we'll go threw this one step at a time. Remeber this technology predates the diesel, how hard can it be to fix it?

Doug

hotater

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2006, 05:35:23 AM »
Doug---

I can't imagine fixing anything without understanding it first...but that's just me.

Here's an all round view of the genhead.  I've been adding penetrating oil to the bearings since I dug it up a year ago, but it's still frozen tight

http://community.webshots.com/album/549981187dBEpAe
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2006, 11:57:12 PM »
Man that is a fossil....

First looks...

I don't need a meggar to see the poles are buggered and the rotor windings realy look bad. This thing sat out in the weather, froze and thawed for several decades didn't it?
Its possibly a Nema frame or early U frame, this is good because that means its easy to wind if need be (most likely to wind that is ). You won't need any fancy insulation materials just some magnet wire, fiberglass resine, woven glass cloth and something to make slot liners out of ( mylar would be good, but we could cheat and use paper if we had too ). Machines of this era didn't get hot because the organic materials of the day wern't good for much avove 100 C so we have a lot of room to improvise and do this on the cheap.
Get it apart and wash it all up with some dish soap and let it dry. First thing we need to do is get it clean enough so you can get pictures of the connections on the rotor. This looks like it was wound with concentric coils so thats to copy and your going to need a micrometer to measure the wire sizes and torch.
You may get lucky and be able to salvage something of the original coils but I'm not going to hold my breath
Work at the bearings. Don't be afraid to use a little force to get it apart, but be sure to note how everything was assembled.

Doug

hotater

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2006, 12:36:16 AM »
It's about the same era fossil as the Lister looks.   ;)

I found it last year at about the '1975 layer' in the gulley full of old stuff.  The bottom was buried and the top was exposed to the elements for quite a while.  The sprocket pitch and width matches a Dussleforf Triumph motorcyle engine mounted in a frame with the remains of an electric start and a throttle on it.  There's a sprocket countershaft with a slack belt run to a starter mount and an old floorboard button starters on the frame......all the evidence points to this genhead being hooked up by roller chain to a motorcyle engine of about 250 CC and run by throttle instead of governor.

There are remains of three more hydro-power schemes on the creek, any of which this genhead could be a part.  One of the old timers said there was another "tremendous" genhead that came from a hydro-power plant somewhere but he said that one could have been used, ".... to dam the creek up but not generate any power from it!".  I'd imagine that one got sold for scrap at one time or another.
      Several old timers have mentioned two generators running from an overshot waterwheel by Vee belts.  They said those genheads were war surplus bomber units of 26VDC and the "belt would squeal when somebody turned on too many lights."  (Sodium Penethol would probably get the same story because it's old enough to have *become* true.)  A flood in the mid '50s got that outfit.
  I've also found scraps of lightning scattered 'welding cable' that went up to a wind turbine in the early '60s.
       
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Doug

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Re: Rebuilding old genhead----
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2006, 01:48:17 AM »
Sounds like quite an interesting place where you live!

But this is an alternator, hard to get a sence of scale, but If I had to guess its something on the order of a Nema 215-254 some place inbetween (frame sizes on stuff this old is tough guess the standards were odd in the pre 1952 U frame era ) and it could be as large as 2000-2500 watts.
I think this is worth trying to fix, if for no other reason the novelty and with all that low desity iron it will run cool and be very quiet.
Oh by the way this has nothing by the way of voltage regulation from the looks of it, you'll have to monitor your voltage with this and adjust according to your load.

Nice looking dogs

Doug