Author Topic: a compelling need to get up to speed  (Read 28648 times)

tlfrantz1

  • Leapin' Listeroids
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2009, 04:58:20 AM »
That house is beautiful.
Q: What is the difference between God and Barack Obama?
A: God doesn't think He's Barack Obama.

Tom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1746
  • Green power is good.
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2009, 06:23:00 AM »
We just have a 13 cu ft sears chest. Don't worry about the computers they don't really use much (unless it is a gaming system). I switched to a laptop too, buy my newest computer is an efficient and quite one I built my self. We are using wildblue for internet and that is working quite well too.

Awesome house!

Tom

 
The responses I have gotten here have been great – what a blessing!!!

I think the idea of providing an immediate turn key solution is best. This will work long enough for me to forge ahead with my lister studies and “do it right” without pressure to perform and produce power NOW.

Tom – so 3.4 KV is basically enough power for your house with a little (150 hours) extra assistance? Sounds good to me! I think we could live within those means – but only time will tell. Everyone says they are on board.

I want to switch to a chest refrigerator like this:

http://www.sundanzer.com/Home.html

We will get rid of stationary computers and switch to laptops and not be bandwidth hogs.

We will have one moderate sized HDTV in the living room.

It really will be an experiment in conservation and cooperation. My hope is that we will pull together and bond even more as a family.

Here are some pictures of my project……

Me in front of the big Redwood before logging



The big Redwood after logging



A deck of Fir logs



Me cutting lumber with the Lucas Mill





The biggest fir log was 42 inches in diameter




Some of the Lumber




My Mother and Sister in front of the big Redwood and house



My Mother and Sister on the back deck




Best regards - Robert



Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

WGB

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2009, 03:02:13 PM »
Beautiful place!  Welcome! I'm doing something similar.
I'm also new to Listeroids, do have some mechanical ability.
I've been working on one since early spring, have about 20-30 hours of hands on work, life time of research lol.
I'm far from being done but it's very usable.
Here is a thread on my Listeroid, might give you some ideas:
http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4658.0

WGB

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #33 on: September 04, 2009, 03:06:20 PM »
Here try this link for the pics, http://www.flickr.com/photos/39282821@N07/ don't know why the Lister forum link doesn't pull up the pics.

panaceabeachbum

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 277
    • View Profile
    • Thompson Machine
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #34 on: September 04, 2009, 03:22:05 PM »
beautiful work. Those sawmills will sure give you a workout

cujet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Lister power rules!
    • View Profile
    • www.cujet.com
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2009, 03:54:07 AM »
Welcome to the forum. Here is a pic of my blueprinted 20/2 listeroid.



However, the pic does not tell the true story. Far from it. First off, I believed all the hype from those "utter" types. Things about efficiency, longevity, quiet operation and more. Come to find out, the listeroid is really a piece of junk. It takes major engineering to make it a good engine. However, it does not compare with a modern engine in any way. It's less efficient, it's noisy, it vibrates, it's huge, (and contrary to claims on utter sites) it's full of shims, clips, washers, spacers, leaks, casting flaws, crummy parts, sand and poor craftsmanship. Plus the power it produces is uneven. The RPM is so low that the combustion events are clearly seen in the 60HZ sine wave as the generator head speeds up and down with the power pulses. This results in lights flickering, microwaves humming, motors struggling and UPS's beeping. The power is really crummy.

It's a really neat toy that will occupy a year of your time just to get it operating reliably.

My suggestion, STAY AWAY. Modern engines are so much better. You can easily spend 5K on a homemade genset that works like it was made in 1933, or you could spend 5K on a modern diesel powered genset that will provide many years of reliable service and quality power.

Chris

People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

rl71459

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2009, 04:05:55 AM »
Wow Cujet.

I'm shocked to hear you say that!  I dont know why I'm shocked because I agree! But I still want one!

Rob

Wizard

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 135
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #37 on: September 07, 2009, 04:44:14 AM »
Unless you do the SOM style with heavier flywheels.  Both on engine and flywheel on the generator head.  This should quit the flicker.

Cheers, Wizard

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2940
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #38 on: September 07, 2009, 01:53:21 PM »
Cujet:

man you can be harsh!  :)

actually my take is the reality is somewhere in the middle

i know of a few that have run 10's of thousands of hours that were not
reengineered or what i or you would call blueprinted either.

to be fair these engines were never really meant to drive a generator without the som flywheels
and most know that the st head is something less than perfect in power quality althgh adequate for most loads.
if you put the two together then yes there is likely to be some flicker and other power quality issues to workout.

if its flicker that is the main concern that can be addressed in numerous ways
heavier flywheels, different lightbulbs (the incandesant bulbs are on the way out anyway) or drive an alternator
to provide power for a battery/inverter system. yes a battery inverter system adds cost, but if you are going offgrid
your going to have both available anyway, and it need not be a huge alternator/battery/inverter if its only lights your concerned
with.

on the other hand i think your est of 5 grand is about average for a 6/1 st5 at the end of the day, and yes maybe one should
consider other engines that are higher quaility out of the box.

it really comes down to what a guy needs first, and what a guy wants second.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Irish Artist

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 131
    • View Profile
    • murphyillustrates.com
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #39 on: September 07, 2009, 05:24:06 PM »
Hey Robert,

Welcome to the forum, you've done some amazing work on your homestead in the hills, it's great to see that craftsmanship is alive and well.

By this point you've gotten all the advise you need as for what to do short term, but what to do long term.

I'm going start off by saying that cujet has a valid point, these Listeroids are not highly refined engines. To have any sort of confidence in its reliability, you have to tear it down and put it back together with care and consideration. Do you have to blueprint it, chop and channel and give it a spiffy paint job? Not necessary.

Bottom line with a Listeroid, these engines are in service all over the third world, they can be operated and maintained by a simple man with simple tools, that's what makes them appealing to me. You can make your gen set as complicated or as simple as you see fit. Yes, many of the members here view them as toys, myself, it's a tool, an easy to work on hard to break tool.

I added it up and figured that with effort, I could set up a 6/1 Listeroid Gen Set, with spare parts on the shelf for around $3.5k. As it's turning out, I got some good deals and I'm going to be under $3k.

This will work for me, and I'm willing to bet that I'll be able to rely on this system for the rest of my life no matter what the future brings. It'll be cheap to run and I'm confident that parts will be around.

Will a Listeroid serve your needs, well that's up to you. It's obvious to me that your a sensible guy, you'll decide what's best for you and your family.

My regards,
Murph'
PS 6/1 • PowerMac G5 Quad • An Electric Pencil Sharpener • 10 foot Trebuchet • Woodford Reserve & A Fine Cigar, life is good!  8)

SHIPCHIEF

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 728
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #40 on: September 07, 2009, 05:52:54 PM »
I would like to add that although I've never met Cujet, I have enjoyed his many posts.
Chris, you do excellent work, and have been involved in quite a few of these Listeroid projects.
I agree with all you said, but what about the 'unsaid'?
Why have you and Rocketboy had so many Listeroids? Could it be something as simple as...being the anti- of all the high tech stuff in your life?
Like aircraft, computers etc?
The Arlington Airshow (in Washington) has old farm tractors pull the Jitney trailers around the airshow. They used to have an Old Engine show too.
I thought it perfect. Slow and Heavy offsets Light and Fast aircraft at the show.
I understand Stelio Fratti's prototype Falco (hotrod aircraft) was pulled to the airfield by a horse?
Perfect.  ;)
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

xyzer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1058
    • View Profile
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2009, 08:08:48 PM »
Robert,
Nice project you have going.....for myself I have learned a 6/1 will service my minimal needs to keep the other half happy but I must be here to operate it. It is frugal on fuel and a pleasant noise while doing its job. It will keep some of the modern conveniences alive and operating but not all at the same time. Load sharing is necessary! I can handle bits an pieces of it if it need a repair. If I was shopping for one 6months ago I would have gotten an 8/1 with electric start and the smaller flywheels that CMD had just to make it more wife friendly if that is possible. But I have what I have and found that a nice modern turn key 5500 watt diesel will do for the major power needs. 5500 watts is still lacking in the operate a house like you are on grid but I can show my wife how to start it and turn on the power to what she needs. It does not do well in the consumption area to let it run for a couple of lights or charging batteries. I myself if I had to cut the cord (go off grid) I would have a 6/1 or equivalent to charge batteries or rotate freezers or refrigerators but it would be to do the little work that needed time to accomplish. If I have a larger demand then I would fire up a big boy that could run big tools a whole house or maybe a couple of heaters because you are tired of hauling wood.
Good Luck!
Dave     
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

cujet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Lister power rules!
    • View Profile
    • www.cujet.com
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2009, 08:55:56 PM »
I would like to add that although I've never met Cujet, I have enjoyed his many posts.
Chris, you do excellent work, and have been involved in quite a few of these Listeroid projects.
I agree with all you said, but what about the 'unsaid'?
Why have you and Rocketboy had so many Listeroids? Could it be something as simple as...being the anti- of all the high tech stuff in your life?
 

Nah, just a fun project that is useful. The low tech aspect of the listeroid is not advantageous or a detriment. Thinking about it, they are actually more complex than you might think, with belt drive and adjustable generator head positions. If I were to do it again, I would only consider a 6-1. The twin and higher RPM variants don't compare well with the competition. Yet the lowly 6-1 is in a league of it's own. Low output and low consumption. Just don't confuse efficiency with consumption. Nearly any modern 6HP diesel will provide fuel specifics that are better.

The unsaid aspect of listeroid operation? Well, not sure on this one. They are cool, that's for sure.

Chris
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

cujet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 957
  • Lister power rules!
    • View Profile
    • www.cujet.com
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2009, 08:59:36 PM »
Unless you do the SOM style with heavier flywheels.  Both on engine and flywheel on the generator head.  This should quit the flicker.

Cheers, Wizard

That's not entirely so. The Start-O-Matic had V belts that would ride up and down in the grooves allowing steady generator head speed with the varying engine speed.

Today, using a poly V belt, this aspect of "adjustment" is gone and some flicker will result.
People who count on their fingers should maintain a discreet silence

mbryner

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 114
    • View Profile
    • Marcus & Emily's personal website
Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2009, 09:10:52 PM »
woodart/Robert,

First off, WELCOME!   A lot of the responses above seem to be negative, but these guys just want to make sure you know what you are getting into.   I'm going to give you a positive story.

Quick background:  It's uncanny how similar your project is to mine.   We are a family of 4 (wife and 2 young kids) who are building an off grid home in Grants Pass, Oregon.   Our land is only 1/2 mile from the last power pole, but the power co wants >$50k to bring up power, then monthly service fees after that.   Quick math shows investing in an off grid system was a good deal.   We decided on 2 Outback 3600 watt inverters, battery bank, and 2400 watts of Evergreen solar panels to start with.   The listeroid is going to be the backup.     Like you, we will have propane stove/oven and dryer and a 1/2 hp Grundfos SQ well pump, but everything else will be just regular (energy star) appliances.   It's a log home about 2500 sq ft.   Wrap around porches similar to yours, and recently logged land (320 acres).

I bought a JKson 6/1 listeroid and 7 kw ST head from Joel Koch up in Portland a little over a year ago.   It has taken about a year to get everything working just the way I want it, explore the engine, clean it out, make a frame, concrete base, create a propane canister muffler and exhaust system, hook it to the power system, etc. etc.   But that has been in my spare time along with many other projects.    There were a few mistakes along the way, i.e. not enough mass in the base, but now I am very happy with the results.    It flawlessly charges the batteries via the Outback inverters and the inverters put out clean power to everything else.    

My reasons for buying a Listeroid were many:   I liked its multi-fuel capabilities.  there are people who have run them on wood gas, which is another one of my projects (slow and languishing project, but see the alternative fuels section of the forum).   Guys like Jens run on waste motor oil.   I've started collecting WMO in 55 gal drums and letting the gunk settle, and I'll try running that this winter.  

If push came to shove, many components of Listers can be repaired or created if you have access to a machine shop.   Try doing that with most off-the-shelf gen-sets.   (Of course, I have a little 5 kw screamer Coleman/Subaru Home Depot jobsite-special for emergencies, too.)

Like drdeath, I'm in medicine, specifically radiology.   Everything I do involves high tech machines and computers, and at home I'm a computer nerd, running Unix and Linux servers, etc.   Working on the Listeroid and helping build my own home provides a welcome break from high tech.

Now with all that said, you are welcome to come up here anytime and see my setup 1st hand, play with the Listeroid, see how it interacts with the off-grid equipment, etc.   We're not *that* far from you.    BTW: my wife and I went to college in the Napa Valley by St. Helena, so your area is somewhat familiar.  

If you're still looking for a Listeroid, you'll be hard pressed to find them brand new from India with the EPA regs you read about on this forum.   All the dealers are out of business.    I'd recommend a 6/1.   Definitely not a dual cylinder.   If you're off grid you will be running it to charge batteries to supplement your solar panels.   You want it to run at at least 50% load.   I run mine at just over 2000 watts when battery charging, but my inverters are adjustable in their charging amperage draw.   Also think about other gen heads besides ST heads.   I've been happy so far, but other guys here would recommend Marathon, etc.   Also, it was a chore getting the ST head past the electrical inspector because it wasn't UL listed.

Now, if you want one that has been cleaned and runs great with about 100 hours running time, always under cover, only run on diesel so far, etc., mine may be for sale!   It's great to start with.  You would need a frame and a ST head.     (Honestly, I'm only considering selling because I may be able to get a 12/1 one a friend may be getting rid of.  I would down-rate the 12/1 to 650 rpm and fit it to my existing frame and ST head.)   If you want a new engine for less than what I bought it for and already in usable condition,  call me!   541-227-8485 cell or email:  marcus (at) docbryner (dot) com and we can discuss it.

Just my opinion.  Take it with a grain of salt.  I'm no mechanic but these engines sure are fun.  

@cujet:  Your engines are beautiful.   For someone who doesn't like these beasts, you sure do a great job, and you have many fans here!

@everyone else: Thanks for all the help!   It has been and continues to be a great learning experience.

Marcus
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 09:16:18 PM by mbryner »
JKson/Powersolutions 6/1, 7.5 kw ST head, propane canister muffler, future off-gridder

"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1775