Author Topic: a compelling need to get up to speed  (Read 29370 times)

jedon

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2009, 04:00:37 AM »
A member here, Tom, has a running Lister + solar an hour and a half north of you. I spend a couple years in Sebastopol in 6-7th grade so kind of know the area.
I'm supplementing my generator and batteries with around 300W of solar, it helps but is far from what we need. Like you I was planning on a lot of solar but as the house progressed that became impossible.
Next year I hope to hook up 240KW of hydro though.

JohnF13

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2009, 02:22:41 PM »
Hi Robert;

I don't know why a lot of the replies here have been so "down" on Listeroids.  Yes, they need some TLC, but with some prep they can run thousands of hours. My set-up includes 2 x 6/1's for everyday use (they provide power 95% of the time), a 10/1 for bigger loads and a Chinese AG 28hp for the big wood/metal working stuff.  I have 3000 A/H of batteries and a pair of Xantrex 12/2400 inverters.  No solar - just can't justify the cost.

I have been off-grid for 3 years now (my buddy has been off 4 years) with no problems.  In the summer I run an engine about 15-16 hours/day to charge batteries and provide house power.  In the winter an engine runs 24/7 - this is why I have 2 x 6/1's, one runs 24 hours then I switch to the other for the next 24 - that way I can do any maintenance that is necessary.  It also gives me a cushion if an engine goes down.

I do have an outdoor wood furnace and also a waste oil burner to heat water for my radiators and tap water.  All in all, it is a system that is relatively easy to look after and for the most part, only takes a hour a day or so.  Of course, if an engine goes down then it will take longer - but even the most complicated repair can be done in a few hours if you have the parts on hand.

One of my 6/1's has over 24,000 hours on it, the other has around 14,000.  Of interest is that the second 6/1 has been converted to a "FergenLister" - I stripped the top end (head, piston, rod, cylinder etc) from the 6/1 and replaced them with the gubbins from a 10/1.  Everything fitted exactly (that was what I wanted to know!) With a bit of added compression I think that engine is now giving me around 7hp at 650 rpm.  Probably not worth it for anyone else, but it seemed like a good idea at the time - I wanted a bit more power without having to increase speed.

John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

compig

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 03:25:06 PM »
Great data there !!  A listeroid with a proven 24 k hours on it , difficult ot argue with ! Which brand is that ?
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 05:23:05 PM »
The initial queation was about getting a generator up and running in an off grid house right now that will serve thru the winter.
Listeroids are fine, and like I said, a fun hobby. But, they require some time to set up the foundation, frame, generator, cooling & exhaust systems etc. In the long run, they are a viable solution and can burn less than idea fuels. They are also the easiest engine to work on and have few parts. I'm still up for that. But when you are already busy building the whole house, moving in and all that other stuff, the Listeroid construction process might take too long to be ready by fall?
By the way John, great numbers on those engines!
Scott
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

JohnF13

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2009, 11:23:44 AM »
Scott;

Yup, I'll agree with you there.  If someone is in a hurry, then this might not be the best way to go. When I was contemplating going off grid I ran my system for 8 months prior to make sure I had the bugs worked out.  Didn't use a watt of grid power, yet my bills didn't go down much - that's what pushed me over the edge in the end.  Up here, delivery charges (apparently the still apply even if you don't use any power), line loss charges and debt retirement charges add up to much more  than the cost of the actual electricity. 

The engines are all JKSoN's.  Of course, they have had work done on them, the older one needed a replacement camshaft at 24k but I figured it was entitled at that point.  I de-carbon every month or so, only takes an hour now (I always have a spare cleaned head ready to pop on then clean the other at leisure) and have installed offset idlers, plain shell bearings and hollow dippers.  Sometimes I wonder at what point is an engine no longer "original"......My engines are never cold, there is warm water circulating through them all the time and oil changes are done every 300 hours or so.  Fuel is WVO, but you have to be aware that it is stickier than diesel and that needs to be dealt with.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

JohnF13

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2009, 07:06:39 PM »
Jens;

It's just a matter of knowing that if the stuff makes a break for it, it is going to gum up pretty much everything it gets into contact with.  Typically I see rubber fuel lines start to weep after several months, eventually they will fail.  There must be some sort of chemical reaction between the fuel line and the impurities in the veggie.  When I do get a bit of leakage (priming or just a simple spill) I try to clean it up as best as possible, but sometimes it is very hard to do, especially if the stuff has had a chance to cool or dry.  I generally find some build-up of "sticky" under the fuel pump and around the plunger - that doesn't take too much to clean up.

As long as the fuel is hot enough when it hits the I.P. I'm not seeing any problems in the system.  I do clean the injectors every 200 hours or so but I have never used diesel for any length of time so I don't know if that is out of the ordinary.

All in all, if you start and stop on diesel then switch to veggie when things are warmed up there doesn't seem to be a problem.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

rpg52

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2009, 10:13:16 PM »
Hi Robert, Everyone,

Well, here is my $0.02.  I've owned a Jkson 6-1 for ~4 years, burns diesel only.  It is a reliable workhorse, but I haven't yet used it to its' potential.  It sits out by my sawmill, still waiting to be finished.  The set-up time was years, but now it provides power for building the sawmill.  It took a while to mount it and work out the bugs.  I wouldn't want to rely on it for immediate power though. 
 
I have a trunk 20,000 volt grid line running ~100' feet from my house - my electric bill is typically ~$40 US or so because I'm careful.  Every 3-4 years, the power goes down - sometimes for a week, more often for a day or three.  For backup for my home, I'm re-building and installing a 4000W Onan CCK.  Bought it fairly cheap, a RV take-out.  I'm converting it to propane from my 280 gal. tank.  Don't need it often, but it will be really handy when I do.  For as little as I will use it, it should outlast me.

So, for immediate power, I would seriously consider a shorter term project, a turn key gen that will let you set up a longer term solution.  As usual, it is all about the $.  Listeroids are an investment, certainly will pay their way, but sometimes short term needs trump longer term investments.  Time spent calculating your needs for electricity is time well spent.
Ray
PS Listeroid 6/1, 5 kW ST, Detroit Diesel 3-71, Belsaw sawmill, 12 kW ST head, '71 GMC 3/4 T, '79 GMC 1T, '59 IH T-340

JohnF13

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2009, 01:23:58 AM »
Jens;

Are you channeling me?  In the time I have run these engines I have had several spills, some of them big, but all of them caused by the operator idiot that saw a "shiny object" and forgot to turn off the fuel pump.  I have a timer waiting to be installed that will at least minimize the impact - but it ain't installed yet!
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

Tom

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2009, 02:04:56 AM »
Robert,

Howdy neighbor. We've been in our off-grid solar home in Hopland since Feb. '08. Ran our 6/1 Listeroid about 160 hours last year and used about 55 gal of fuel. I also have hydronic floors and 3.4 Kw of solar on the roof of the house.

Depending on which inverters you intend to purchase and how you plan to charge the batteries a Listeroid may or may not be a wise move. Could you give us some specifics on your expected usage, battery bank and inverters? How "enrolled" are your wife and daughters?
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

westcoaster

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2009, 04:32:43 AM »
Jens;

Are you channeling me?  In the time I have run these engines I have had several spills, some of them big, but all of them caused by the operator idiot that saw a "shiny object" and forgot to turn off the fuel pump.  I have a timer waiting to be installed that will at least minimize the impact - but it ain't installed yet!

I am assuming you meant to write "challenging". No, no challenge attempted, it's not much fun :(  ....and yes, all my spills were operator related. Heck, my last spill was a situation where I was fully aware that a spill would happen  - not if but when! I knew I had to fix the setup before it spilled but didn't do it in time :(
The other two occasions - diaphragm pumps allow siphoning to take place (and overfill a tank) and leaving temporary fuel lines in place with no clamps and no supervision is not a good idea.  
On the bright side, I have never forgotten to turn off the pump (although I guess that too will just be a question of time)

Jens

For what it's worth I read it as "channeling" as in mental telepathy, vulcan mind meld, extra sensory perception, two guy's thinking the same thing.....

woodart

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2009, 07:26:51 AM »
The responses I have gotten here have been great – what a blessing!!!

I think the idea of providing an immediate turn key solution is best. This will work long enough for me to forge ahead with my lister studies and “do it right” without pressure to perform and produce power NOW.

Tom – so 3.4 KV is basically enough power for your house with a little (150 hours) extra assistance? Sounds good to me! I think we could live within those means – but only time will tell. Everyone says they are on board.

I want to switch to a chest refrigerator like this:

http://www.sundanzer.com/Home.html

We will get rid of stationary computers and switch to laptops and not be bandwidth hogs.

We will have one moderate sized HDTV in the living room.

It really will be an experiment in conservation and cooperation. My hope is that we will pull together and bond even more as a family.

Here are some pictures of my project……

Me in front of the big Redwood before logging



The big Redwood after logging



A deck of Fir logs



Me cutting lumber with the Lucas Mill





The biggest fir log was 42 inches in diameter




Some of the Lumber




My Mother and Sister in front of the big Redwood and house



My Mother and Sister on the back deck




Best regards - Robert



compig

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #26 on: September 03, 2009, 10:48:36 AM »
Thats impressive !! And a view that you could never tire of.
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

JohnF13

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2009, 11:06:30 AM »
Jens;

It was "channeling"!  Seems like we all make the same mistakes but not everyone wants to admit to them. I figure if I can help someone else not make the same errors I have then it is worth the ribbing I might take.

Robert - reminds me of when I built my house - fun times but I'm not sure I'd want to do it twice!
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

horsefly76

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2009, 02:52:47 AM »
Listen to Bob!
These engines are a hobby. When done correctly they are a hoot! Get a package generator first, build the Listeroid for fun later.
I'm a marine engineer, and live a strong portion of my life with diesel generator power. They require upkeep and attention.
The best ones I have run *By Far* are Detroit Diesel Series 60 powered. That's too big for you, but the truth is "They don't make 'em like they used to, and it's a dam*ed good thing!"
I did get a Lister SR-2 air cooled genset, 6.5 Kw rated, built in 1973 for the US Dept of Transportation. 2300 hours on the meter, and complete for $899. That would be a qualifier for you as a mid power generator. Isuzu powered commercial generator units in 3 and 4 cylinder seem promising. Little 3Kw diesel generators seem economical, but I don't know anyone who has run one, as Honda gas generators dominate this field.
We would all like to see you get into this Lister thing, but we want you to know that off grid living with a family needs reliable and available power. Lots of homes in the English commonwealth nations (off grid) have been powered by start-o-matic type generators that start when electricity is required, like when you turn on a light or start the clothes washer. They shut down automaticaly when you stop using power. Some are the older Lister CS style, but a later model 1500/1800 RPM unit with the 'start-o-matic' option would be good. That's the older style before all these battery and inverter systems became popular. A used one of these in good condition with the control intact would be your most cost effective and quickest way to get set up. You can always expand from there.  :D

ShipCheif I just bought this SR1 from work for $10 running condition 572Hrs on the clock



2007 Metro 6/1 Running on Biodiesel (Thank's Sam!)
4 Hp Air Cooled Yanmar Clone
6.5 Hp Kubota EB-300 D
2007 kawasaki KLX 250 Dual Sport
2003 Jetta TDI 5 Spd.
1971 Lister SR1
2 Lister Petter LPA3

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: a compelling need to get up to speed
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2009, 03:33:02 AM »
RIGHT ON DUDE!  ;D
(Whatcha gonna DO with it?)
Perfect for that 3 to 4Kw thing....You know, the one Honda dominates?
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's