a compelling need to get up to speed

[cujet]

This, in my opinion is a great application of a 6-1. It's on a cart with water filled tires. The engine is balanced quite well and does not need a concrete base. However, it did take some serious lead weight to get the balance just right.

As for this thing lasting 20,000 hours. I seriously doubt it. The cast iron piston rings are just not that wear resistant, nor is the cast iron bore. The rockers actuate the valves directly without the benefit of internal lubrication. I expect the side loads on the valve guides to be an issue in the long run. Roller rockers might eliminate this issue and provide substantially longer valve and guide life.

As for listeroids vs. modern engines and the machining required. Modern machine shops produce parts with equal precision no matter the type of engine. So, in my mind, the listeroid requires the exact same quality of machining as a modern engine. Do you expect valves to seal or rings to seal with flaws? I would say a modern engine is exactly as tolerant of flaws as a listeroid is. At some point the flaw is big enough to let enough air to leak out and it will stop running. What's the difference??

On the plus side, these things are truly fun.

Chris

[mobile_bob]

i guess it comes down to what your definition of running for 20k hours really is?

mine would be any engine that can make 20k hours with only minor rebuilds, such as new rod brg,
rings, and valve jobs as needed.

but then again, with plain upper brgs w/hollow dippers, a good clean bore and good rings couple with a good
airfiltration unit and well filtered fuel, and a decent 3 angle or at least a two angle with in included relief angle of perhaps
a half degree,, i would expect the engine to be relatively trouble free over the course of 20k hours...

oh yes, we probably would need to change out the idler gear on a periodic basis, just as standard operating procedure.

there are numerous folks out there with upwards of 20k hours and having had no catastrophic failures.

thats not bad in my opinion.

don't get me wrong, i am no fan of a lister/oid, but they aren't that bad in most cases
they just need some care in build and ongoing maintenance.

for a basic long life engine, the c201 thermoking/isuzu is about as bullet proof an engine that was ever made
in the 23-26hp range,  those things will literally run forever... 100k miles probably not, but i am sure they will
make 20k hours with some maintenance, and over 40k hours with good maintenance.

and now i am wondering about the little cat/perkins 2 cylinder engine's, they claim 6k hours
but i wouldn't be surprised to see one run well over 10k hours in generator operation where maintenance is
good and where they are not out in the dirt trenching or whatever but in a genshed that is fairly clean.

bob g

[mbryner]

Jens, thanks for the pointer to Eco Diesel of Canada.  But they wouldn't be able to ship to the USA, though, if the EPA regs are what everyone says they are.   You'd have to go up and pick it up.   Pretty drive, though.     And another west coast supplier of parts.....

Cujet, OK, I agree with you about "home manufacturing" of internal parts.  I just know that milling out the head a little to make a thermostat fit was easy.   But then again, it shouldn't have all that casting slag in the ports anyway...   One of my points was that those of us who are off-grid, some of which are way out in the boonies, the less engine components to go bad the better.   It's sort of nice not to have a water pump or oil pump, w/ just an old fashioned splash lube system.

Since you are debunking the theories of higher Listeroid fuel efficiency and simplicity, you guys are really making me re-evaluate why I bought this engine in the first place: multi-fuel.    (I almost had buyers remorse looking at those Perkins and Northern Lights generators on Eco Diesel's website just now!)

Marcus

[cujet]

why I bought this engine in the first place: multi-fuel.  

Marcus

Yes sir, the listeroid is quite tolerant of various fuels. That is a BIG PLUS and I believe I forgot to mention that fact. The low pressure injectors have larger orifices than comparable modern engines. This means thick fuels can be used without causing a disaster of a fuel system failure. Plus the indirect injection is reportedly a good way to go with alternative fuels. Something about turbulence, atomization and raw fuel on the cylinder walls being better with indirect injection. Still, I ran my 2006 Jetta TDI on alternative fuels with no problems.

I have run mine on waste Jet fuel (Jet A) with some lubricity added, and a 50/50 mix of WMO and Jet A,  and I even tried olive oil. It runs the same on each fuel. 

[woodart]

I must say thank you all again for the terrific and candid responses I have gotten here. I have definitely learned that I have a lot to learn. However, I feel good about my path – thanks . Best regards - Robert.