Author Topic: Bl**dy copper!  (Read 22390 times)

compig

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2009, 11:05:40 AM »
BTW , there is an electric pipe soldering iron available. Probably not economically viable for limited use though.
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AdeV73

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2009, 12:18:00 PM »
OK, I dismantled, and discovered that the worst leaky joint, I'd forgotten to solder it at all!! Oops! It wasn't even prepared, so it must have just gone together tight enough to act like it was done. Eejit, etc. Most of the other leaky bits just look like crappy cleaning and/or overheating.

I have some electrical solder (60/40 lead/tin) which I might try, that has flux cores. It's a bit thin for plumbing really, but I've got loads of it. And I have some original Rosin flux as well, although it's at least 40 years old, so it may have lost a lot of its goodness...

Compig, I did look at that electric pipe soldering iron, but the general Internet Wisdom is that it's pretty useless for anything above 15mm, and far slower than gas at that size. I'm mostly using 22mm and 28mm pipework; I only had to do 2 15mm joints, and they were a complete doddle compared to the 22mm and 28mm stuff...




compig

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 12:28:31 PM »
Yeah , they're mainly used for inaccesible joints in cupboards etc where gas would be a hazard.  BTW , is this copper work for the Lister ?
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mobile_bob

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2009, 12:28:53 PM »
for future reference

go to your plumbing supplier and get one of those neat little stainless steel brushes
one end is like a bottle brush the midsection will do the pipes outer wall

a quick twist back and forth on each and they are ready,

i use acid flux, not rosin, rosin is for electrical and not nearly as good as acid as a flux

flux both the pipe and the fitting, heat both from the bottom, and work the solder until you see it suck up
continue to play the heat onto the joint until you see it such up and weep out at the top of the joint, then
drop the heat and a quick wipe with a damp towel will finish off the joint and leave a professional look behind.

very easily done and quick,

my dad was a plumber and i have ran thousands of ft of copper along with fittings in my younger days.

as for repairing a joint after you have watered it...

disassemble the joint, clean well and prep it as normal
then stuff a piece of white bread up into both sections of the joint back about 3 or more inches
it will stop the water from dribbling down, and later will wash out of the fawcett no problem.

the last job i did was an old victorian home here in tacoma, it was a two bath 3 story home with basement laundry
and many, many feet of pipe and connections,, and no leaks.

btw, i have never tinned a connection, and quite frankly cannot see how you can do so and still get the connection back together
prior to finish soldering?  the fittings we get here are far to close tolerance to allow for tinning.

bob g
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rcavictim

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2009, 03:20:26 PM »

  One thing I will say is that I don't really like the 95/5 solder. It just does not flow nice! I prefer the old 50/50 stuff,50% tin and 50% lead. It flows nice with not an awfull amount of heat.

  I think 95/5 is 95% tin and 5% copper, A higher melting point

95-5 solder is 95% tin and 5% antimony.   I only use it (with paste flux) where I want a physically stronger/harder structural joint.  For regular copper plumbing you can't beat 50-50 or 60-40 wire solder. 
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Wizard

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2009, 03:24:49 PM »
Some advice based on personal experience: Don't use steel wool to clean the copper prior to soldering. It turns out that steel wool has oil in it...

Best regards,
Andy Hall

I have used wire wool without problems but now I use Scotchbrite.



Edit: And why do the Americans insist on calling it "sahder"??? It's "solder" like "sole duuuuhhhh"! ;)

Thats no worse than some colloquialisms used in various dialects in the UK though.

Bwahahahaha!!  "sole-duuuuhh"!

Cheers, Wizard

AdeV73

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2009, 03:30:58 PM »
Thanks all - I re-did my work on the two lower pipe sections (the really bad ones), all leaks cured



The top section leak, which was just a tiny weep, I figured I'd leave for now (I'm only testing out the new heat transfer whatsit) - so of course, as the system came up to temperature, that turned into a bit more of a gusher... but the main thing is, it's working as a cooling system :)




PS: Yes.... I know that I shouldn't have solid pipe all the way through the system, as the copper (probably where it joins the tank) will vibrate, work harden, and fail. I have some EPDM pipe on order which will replace some of the straight bits of 28mm pipe. I'd use regular car coolant pipe, but despite having at least a dozen old engines lying around, and various other bits & pieces, I don't seem to have any suitable rad pipe!

Quote

Bwahahahaha!!  "sole-duuuuhh"!


OK...

Say "Old". Now say "Older". Now say "It's Older". Now drop the "it". Congratulations, you just said "Solder"! Repeat 1000 times ;)  ::)  ;D

Combustor

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2009, 05:02:56 PM »
         Solder----- ? on copper subject to thermal cycling or vibration------- ? Not Bl**dy likely!  Seen too many leaks even when done by tradesmen.
     For copper to copper joints plumbers now use a filler rod called Phos-Copper. No flux needed, flows nicely at moderate temps with oxy-acetylene
     or air-acetylene, and cheap to buy in several gauges. For copper to brass, bronze or steels a silver bronze alloy with high silver content is totally
     reliable, though a bit expensive. However, even a self taught backyarder like myself can make it look good. Just my opinion, Regards,
                                                                                                                                                                                           Combustor.
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AdeV73

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2009, 05:30:25 PM »

By the way, AdeV, the picture you posted of the short section of copper seems to indicate quite poor cleaning. It is pretty difficult to tell but it looks like some pretty coarse sandpaper was used for cleaning. This tends to leave a lot of crap in the joint and could produce sections that will not accept the solder. If enough of those sections come together you get a small tunnel forming.
Also make sure that BOTH sides of the joint are cleaned!


Yeah, I'd used 80-grit ali-oxide originally; I've switched to a 240-grit wet'n'dry now, and it does seem to clean up nicer. All the joints look rough, but this is only a "trial bodge" to make sure I can actually make the scheme work - I imagine it'll all be re-done before the engine gets installed for real.

compig

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2009, 08:04:52 PM »
btw, i have never tinned a connection, and quite frankly cannot see how you can do so and still get the connection back together
prior to finish soldering?  the fittings we get here are far to close tolerance to allow for tinning.

bob g

Wet the pipe with solder , wipe off while still molten with a damp cloth or sponge. Thats been my MO ever since I started and it works fine for me.
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mobile_bob

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2009, 08:19:16 PM »
thanks, i had heard of folks doing it that way, but i always have to fight with fitting up
so never did the tinning method.

bob g
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compig

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2009, 08:28:45 PM »
Ultimately it's whatever suits the situation.
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Tugger

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2009, 10:21:41 PM »
Apply solder to the opposite side of the pipe/fitting from where you are heating the pipe with a torch...
Solder will travel to the heat...i dunno why...but it does...
Cheers
Tug

Doug

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2009, 11:09:16 PM »
I've only been soldering copper pipes for about 1/2 day,

I reckon I've been running solder since I was about 4 or 5 years old (I am 60 now). Back then we used a kerosene fired torch and big heavy soldering irons (coppers). My pappy was a sheet metal mechanic and I was his helper before I could walk.
Practice practice practice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MrayQpIc5k&feature=channel_page

I still use a blow torch.
The 308 is an electricians that I realy enjoy using but I also have a firepot intended to melt a ladle of solder or lead for dipping ends. Way back in the day when splices in homes were done in solder. I also lace wiring rather than tyewrap from time to time. Not because its faster or easier ( its not ) but because I realy dig doing things the old way and messing with young peoples heads lol.
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Bagpiper

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Re: Bl**dy copper!
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2009, 11:30:18 PM »
Not because its faster or easier ( its not ) but because I realy dig doing things the old way and messing with young peoples heads lol.

Yuppers, that is half the fun. Helps too, I think, to preserve traditions and skills that are easily lost to the younger generations.

I still have a coal forge sitting out in the back yard if I ever get it cranked up again. And cranked is what I mean for sure! Hand-cranked blower, not a bellows-driven model.

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