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Author Topic: Government health care  (Read 69413 times)

AdeV73

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #105 on: September 09, 2009, 11:53:39 PM »
Ultimately, we are to blame for the healthcare systems we have - the US, UK, Canada, Australia, all of us. After all, we elected the politicians who put the rules - or, indeed, the institutions - in place.

It's easy to say "it wasn't my fault" however. I'm guilty of that, I guess we all are, at least some of the time. As individuals, we have little opportunity to change the system ourselves; but sitting back and saying "hey, it's not my fault, and there's nothing I can do about it" is, in fact, contributing to the problem...whatever the problem is.

rl71459

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #106 on: September 10, 2009, 01:52:54 AM »
Dont worry.... Im watching Mr President right now.... He says everything is gonna be great!

And I know he means it because he raises his voice when he says it and all the Idiots applaud!

Must be right!   ::)

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #107 on: September 10, 2009, 06:20:04 AM »
It seems as though we all keep going around and around on who's to blame and how we got into the political fix we're now in.

I believe at the heart of all our political issues is the power of advertising, the media industry has become a very powerful tool for the political systems all across the world. The mass majority of the world population (at least those that have a say) are glued to the TV, radio and recently the internet. Our leaders have realized the potential of this and have capitalized on it over the last 40 or so years.

Those of us that are really paying attention try to call them on the BS, but the masses just follow the cattle call towards the bright light of socialism salvation. You want to know why, because it's easy! No muss, no fuss, big bro will take care of it.

Here in the U.S. We've been led by our noses for years, we thought we controlled the government, but truth is they've had blinders on us for years. I know, they step up and say "Now, now, you misunderstand what I'm saying . . . . then they very skillfully lay a very smooth line of bull sh*t in front of you and the masses buy it and all is well, for a while.

In a nutshell the REAL problems here in the U.S. came about when politics became a profession, then it boiled down to the two political parties fighting for the attention of the american public, well then it  became no holds barred.   As the process became more complex it was easier for them to hide their mistakes and lie to us. And with the power of the mass media, it became easy for politicians to win over the masses with charisma, who needs facts?

It makes me hang my head in shame to be such a pessimist, I'm really a fun loving guy, but we're all being duped here, today, right now, by our government, not the first time, not the last. It's not republican, it's not democrats, hell if they didn't have each other to fight with, they'd have to fight with us!

We can keep going around and around on how to fix it, sorry, that's not going to happen any time soon. We're going to end up in a real quagmire of social discontent first. then some hard lessons about humanity and self preservation, then, maybe we'll get back to some sort of civil discourse.

Like I say, sorry to be such a pessimist, but the foundation of our society will have to be rocked before any serious change will happen. Just take a look at history, funny how it repeats itself, but the masses never learn!

Murph'
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mobile_bob

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #108 on: September 10, 2009, 08:46:37 AM »
as they say "man generally will not change until he has a compellling reason to do so"

we are seeing change shoved down our throat just like momma did with the bottle of
castor oil.

what has surprised me is people are starting to wake up, and bring pressure to bear on those we have elected
and more pressure needs to be brought down on them, their feet need to be held to the fire.

the problem is there needs to be massive change in washington before they start looking to fix us and our problems

obama says, i will pay for health care changes by cutting the waste out of medicare

if there is 600billion in waste to cut out of medicare, why not cut the fat out first so that there would be proof
that there is that sort of money kicking around.

how about a little tort reform? oh ya,,, can't do that, its the friggin atty's that run washington, they sure as hell
are not going to cut their umbilical cord to the gravy train now are they?

i don't see a good solution, or worse i see a bad end to this story.

what can i do as an individual?

well not much in the peoples republic of western washington, but
perhaps my extra pocket change could go to other races in other states where
some one of these socialist ultraliberal congressman are in trouble in the polls

perhaps i can make more of a difference with my contributions steering them toward races
where it might really make a difference in turning the tide?

i suspect if we all did  the same and got out and passed the hat for some of these races maybe we could change
things up a bit in washington

harry reid is behind in his home state of nevada, i am thinking some of my money will go toward the election of
he opposition and get that slob out of power
maybe there is a few others?

maybe that way i end up changing things in my own district, if i can get their party out of power, maybe things can be changed
up a bit, to where the next election cycle i can work to unseat some of them around here?

i have tried everything else? why not?

i got folks i never got to vote for in washington telling me how i got to live in my state, so maybe
this is my way of turning a bit of heat back on washington,, even if it is very small

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

MeanListerGreen

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #109 on: September 10, 2009, 01:03:15 PM »
I watched the president last night and IMO he blew it.   He had a strong chance of establishing a true NHS and all he did is suggest a knotted up rats nest of several plans.  It all looks bad to me. 
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LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #110 on: September 10, 2009, 06:59:03 PM »
Let us eat bread!

Please get off Medicare if you don't like socialized services.  It's not mandatory.  Just open up those 401Ks and pay for yours, mom’s and dad’s medical and profiteering insurance needs.  While you’re at your desk why not stop accepting your Social Security money once you get your investment plus a fair return.  Let’s close down public schools, fire stations, police services, public roads…… Department of Defense…….  You’ve heard it all before from me and my brother.  Get consistent.

If you, brave stalwarts of courage and moral fortitude, can’t or won’t do the right thing why do you fault “We the People” weak collective sheep?

“We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.”

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M61hops

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #111 on: September 10, 2009, 09:21:07 PM »
All that it would take to sort this mess out would be for the Congress and Senate members to get the same health plan benifits that the average taxpayer (that is funding their health care) gets  ;) !  No more, no less.  Probably should do the same for pensions.  Problem solved!  Pay for the plans by stop spending money on useless, immoral wars that only seem to exist to give taxpayer money to a small group of favored contractors.  A few years ago one of my Senators introduced a law to make war profiteering illegal.  The law was voted down 98 to 2!  That means the Senators of every state except California thinks it's proper for the taxpayers to give truckloads of tax dollars to a small group of already wealthy friends with no restrictions  :o !!!  (Go ahead pals, grab all you can get!)  Unlimited money for killing people but they can't afford to help the over burdened working family  ??? !!  What's up with that  :o !  The working class is being ripped off big time but the TV tells them everything is OK, trust us  :D !  The shame is it doesn't have to be like this, there are other ways to structure the system, but any ideas outside the 2 party system are presented as crazy and there is never any serious discussion about what the taxpayer needs and deserves.  The Media is controlled by the people that benifit from the system the way it is  :-X !  I expect any health care industry reform law will be written by the health care industry itself and will benifit them much more than the taxpayers  :'( !    My .02 !          Leland             P.S. anybody think I overuse the emoteacons?  ::)  ???  :-\  :)
I pray everyday giving thanks that I have one of the "fun" mental disorders!

LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #112 on: September 11, 2009, 03:08:45 AM »
 ;D
Yes.
 :o
 ::)
 :-*
 :'(

 ;)
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Re: Government health care
« Reply #113 on: September 11, 2009, 05:45:11 AM »
 Lowgear, I apologize if some of what I said offended you. Perhaps I misinterpreted your last post, but here's my stats:

• I'm self-employed, I pay for my own health insurance, no help from uncle sam.

• I have about 20 years before I might be able to get any sort of Social Security. Honestly, I have serious doubts if there will be any left when I reach that age, so I'm making other retirement plans.

•I pay my property taxes which support the roads, the fire department and the local schools, I do it faithfully because I really care about what happens in my local community.

I try my darnest to do the right thing and I will protect the constitution with my life if necessary.

What I was trying to point out is the fact that way too many of us are asleep at the wheel.  Casey you are a man that I admire, you're up for a healthy debate, your involved and obviously passionate about our countries future, very cool!

But honestly, look around you and consider the stats of voter turnouts of the last oh so many years, and how many of those did any kind of research other than what was feed to them by the mass media?

I agree, it will take "We the People" to form a more perfect union, I'd just like to get some sense of we the people running the union. Too many expect the solutions to come from the Federal government, the solutions should be coming for the local communities! Yes indeed we the people can solve most of our problems, but first we have to wake up look around and help one another out!

With respect,
Murph'
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LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #114 on: September 11, 2009, 09:06:01 AM »
Hi Murph,

I've only been offended on this site once and not by a nice guy like you.  I truly love this country as you do.  Loving anyone or thing also includes knowing their shortcomings.  If you can’t see the shortcomings then it’s called worship.

I don't live in the "Good Old Days" for many reasons besides thinking they are mostly myth.  Most of the cultures that spend much time in the past have my sympathy.  Life is here, now and in the hopeful future.  I will always love and respect my father.  I still, at 65, laugh at how much influence if not control he has on me 35 years after his death.  Probably more than when he was alive.  But he released me to live my life and wished me a good journey.  May you all enjoy this level of freedom.

Your motives for supporting your local culture are as honorable as any we’ll ever hear.  You may notice that I don’t complain about my taxes either because I want to live in a great country too and that takes money.  But your list is of “socialist styled” programs.  They are managed in a government top down format and supported by money that is taken from the people with the threat of force.  Don’t pay your property taxes for three years here in Washington and they’ll come and take it away from you and they will be wearing guns.  Screw with them and you’ll go to jail.  Most of the truly important jobs in all cultures are done in a socialist fashion.  I am so sorry and concerned that my neo conservative associates can’t or won’t see this simple truth.  It would be a beautiful world if good works people would come forward and do the difficult tasks but they don’t.  Hence we, like all societies now and in history, opt for the socialist model. 

Health care is a life and death situation just like house fires and assaults.  This proposed program is a health insurance answer something like Medicare where the government pretty much stays out of the doctor’s offices and hospitals.  And no I don’t believe the rhetoric of President Obama about lower costs and efficiencies.  But if you believe this government can or would install death councils and survive then I urge you to get off the computer right now and go find some professional mental health care whether you pay for it by Visa, Blue Cross or Atnea.  (If Blue Cross or Atnea finds out though you better hold on to your current policy because they won’t want your new business.)  Don’t lose sight of the current health insurance companies that deliver death sentences everyday through “refused service”, “no experimental authorized”, complete policy cancellations and, as above, refusing the business of folks with prior conditions.  Insurance companies are a cost plus business model.  The more things cost this year the more they can charge next year.  30% more of more is more.

Cheers,

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MeanListerGreen

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #115 on: September 11, 2009, 01:01:05 PM »
It's true.  "We the people...."  are letting and have been letting all this happen for so long without any kind of protest to speak of.  My son who is British visited me a few weeks ago and interprets that the 2nd amendment was put in place to form a militia to prevent the government from doing things "We the people" object to.  I wonder what the impact (hypothetically speaking, of course) would be if several million people showed up in Washington excercising their 2nd amendment?
MLG Gib Key Pullers

mkdutchman

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #116 on: September 11, 2009, 01:02:27 PM »
Quote
Your care runs out when your money runs out.

The current system is flat unworkable.

Why?

Because costs are rising at about 22% per year, year over year.

<snip>

It's stupid.

Steve

And why are costs rising so fast? Can you say "malpractice insurance"? I would love to see a cost breakdown of a doctor's costs year by year. I'm betting that those "greedy insurance companies" may not be so much the villain after all. I know there are some real doctors on here. What do they have to say?

Lowgear,
You seem like a nice guy, but I find myself disagreeing with you a lot  :) I hope you don't mind

First, I have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare. zip, zilch, nada. I pay no SS taxes, and no benefits from uncle sam will be coming my way when I retire. I have an ss number, but as far as ss is concerned I only exist. No taxes, no benefits. To me Social Security is just plain wrong.

Second, my $200 a month church sponsered medical plan, which would be phased out under obamacare BTW, has always been upfront and helpful and administered locally, not by some bureaucrat. Also covers my entire family BTW. Why would I want a government plan?

Third, if my house catches fire, the nice firemen who will put it out for me won't expect a dime for their effort. We have over a dozen small locally operated, volunteer fire companies in a ten mile radius. very fast, very professional, absolutely dedicated to their job, and not because they're getting paid for it. I have a lot of respect and admiration for them, having seen them in action many times. The cops will be paid of course, and i don't begrudge them that. But even the EMT/ambulance crew is a volunteer service around here

Most of the truly important jobs in all cultures are done in a socialist fashion.  I am so sorry and concerned that my neo conservative associates can’t or won’t see this simple truth.  It would be a beautiful world if good works people would come forward and do the difficult tasks but they don’t.  Hence we, like all societies now and in history, opt for the socialist model.

Yes, government is socialistic in nature. That's why we don't want much of it!! And if you start getting people to rely on the gov for services they should be doing themselves it's very very hard to turn it back. Don't believe me? why don't you vist some of the welfare communities? It would open your eyes I'm sure.

The bottom line here is that gov wants to grow bigger, not smaller, and someone else will be gaining more control over your life. For the life of me I can't understand why that concept is so hard to grasp. Again, someone else will be making the decisions for you, decisions that only you should be making. For me, that's not acceptable.

Or to put it another way, I don't want more gov in my life precisely because of the gov I already have. I've had to deal with USPS, Amtrak, IRS, and we've often had to deal with the local township, as well as the county. Try getting some accountability out of any of them. A corporation you can at least tell to go to you-know-where. Try doing that with a gov entity.

The latest example is a letter sent out to all businesses informing them that effective immediately all work done on the home by an outside contractor, totaling over $500 in value must be preceded by a signed contract, and effective immediately all contractors who do over $500 worth of work in a month must be registered with the state in order to "protect the consumer" And you need to pay X amount to renew the registration, blah,blah,blah

Oh yah, we want to protect the consumer,  ::)

Or how about PA's "stuffed toy registration law" where any person making and selling a stuffed toy will need to apply for a permit to do so? And will need to apply for and receive a number to affix to the teddy bear or whatever so that if some poor kid chokes on the toy "we can go back and determine if all applicable safety laws were followed in making the toy"

Really?!? How about some consumer responsibility?!??

Again, the argument that "more gov is okay because we already have a lot of gov to start with" is total crap IMO

Health care is a life and death situation just like house fires and assaults.  This proposed program is a health insurance answer something like Medicare where the government pretty much stays out of the doctor’s offices and hospitals.  And no I don’t believe the rhetoric of President Obama about lower costs and efficiencies.  But if you believe this government can or would install death councils and survive then I urge you to get off the computer right now and go find some professional mental health care whether you pay for it by Visa, Blue Cross or Atnea.  (If Blue Cross or Atnea finds out though you better hold on to your current policy because they won’t want your new business.)  Don’t lose sight of the current health insurance companies that deliver death sentences everyday through “refused service”, “no experimental authorized”, complete policy cancellations and, as above, refusing the business of folks with prior conditions.  Insurance companies are a cost plus business model.  The more things cost this year the more they can charge next year.  30% more of more is more.

Health care is a life and death situation, absolutely correct. That's why I want to be making the decisions concerning my healthcare, not the gov

And no, the gov will not be staying out of doctor's offices and medical decisions. "He who pays the piper calls the tune" It works the same way here. Have you even read the bill? Did you see the place where the "health commissar/czar" is tasked with "determining a doctor's pay"? If I were a doctor that would scare the living cr*p out of me. And I think I also saw a couple of places where guidelines are given on when to refuse treatment, and what dollar amount to go by to determine the worth of a life, basically. And regards "death panels", a panel that has the power to evaluate treatment for another human being and either grant it or deny it has, I'm sorry to say, great potential for becoming a death panel. And considering that 52 new boards/panels/bureaucracies will be set up (not a typo) all treatment decisions will be fast and effective, right?  ::) In your dreams, that is.

Regards the current insurance companies, how will you be improving things by replacing the drive for money with the drive for power, or even worse, plain old mediocrity?


I know one thing for a fact, I've never become more involved in the political process other than voting every chance I had. I always thought I was doing my duty and that was good enough, this year and the next that's going to change.........

I have the misfortune to have the specter spectacle for my district (note that he doesn't even come close to representing me) and I'm going to be doing everything I can to get his sorry keister kicked out next year. And while I'm at it I'll probably be seeing what I can do to help some other challengers in some districts. reid, boxer, and pelosi opponents come to mind.....

MLG,
Ther is a big march planned on DC tomorrow. May be interesting......
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 01:06:01 PM by mkdutchman »

Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2009, 06:30:53 PM »
Would anyone like to join a comune deap in the PNW hills?

I'm so feed up with everything I could easily be motivated to become the Utility/power guy......
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MeanListerGreen

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #118 on: September 11, 2009, 07:15:39 PM »
How about we pool our money, buy an island and form our own country?  Call it little Listerville!
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apogee_man

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #119 on: September 11, 2009, 07:20:19 PM »
Quote
...plain old mediocrity?


I know one thing for a fact, I've never become more involved in the political process other than voting every chance I had. I always thought I was doing my duty and that was good enough, this year and the next that's going to change.........

Good.  No GREAT!!!!

And, I would strongly encourage others to do so as well.

I am SO tired of the whole govt workers=mediocrity line of thinking.

I for one am no doorknob and would welcome your experience, intelligence, business accumen, etc to help out.

But beware, you might just figure out first-hand that most of the people that you and others are so quick to criticize are actually fairly sharp and on the ball; and that there are legit reasons for things being done the way they are done.

Then what???

Have you ever tried to take a room full of 100 people and attempted to create rules that please everyone and are legal at the same time?  Try it sometime; it's far, far tougher than you think.

And yes, I hate big govt as much as the rest of you.  However, there needs to be some form of structure to the mayham, and the wild west concept isn't very realisitic.

What we currently have is very messy from a process standpoint.  However, it's still one of the best in the world.  My biggest gripe is that govt and it's rules seem to be additive in nature and I don't always agree that they should be.

I can't stand overeaction based on one or very few incidents that then affect everyone else.

And yes, I hate the EPA but I believe in clean air and water so I'm willing to tolerate it to a point.  If it was left up to the free market and the corporate world, we common folks would be living in a cesspool while the top dogs avoided looking and working in it.  Don't believe me?  History is prescident in this case.

Again, I STRONGLY encourage your (and other's) participation!

Steve

PS - Regarding the $200 church sponsored medical plan, how much of your cost is being underwritten by others taken from the congregation collection basket???  What is the difference between that and having the govt do the exact same thing across the board?  At least you'd have another reasonably priced option from which to choose.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 08:05:23 PM by apogee_man »