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Author Topic: Government health care  (Read 60337 times)

Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #75 on: August 21, 2009, 01:39:59 AM »
We need general strikes, work ins and LOUD complaints about goverment on a variety of subjects not just health care.

BUT health care is a dam good flash point that everyone can agree on. Its too expensive and too many are getting rich at the expense of too many who are falling through the cracks.

I don't know whats coming in the future but it seems more and more of the same boom, bust, rot, and a mad race to try and make up for it before the rotting begins again. We are falling behind in quality of life and its tied directly to wealth or lack there of.

Another jobless recovery is about to begin and the newly unemployed from this rescesion will face and uncertan future. Next we will hear about productivity gains and factory orders up and the top 10% are going to pocket the difference.
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SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2009, 07:08:32 AM »
Well Doug and Low Gear;
I'm pretty conservative, however I see some of the problems the same way you do. I just don't see the same solutions.
I believe that Woodrow Wilson sold us down the river when he signed the Federal Reserve Act. That's been sucking the cream off our economy for almost a century. If that wasn't happening, we might not have the deficits we now have.
Our Congress is full of small minded plebians that think of their power, getting re-elected and money for their home towns and family buisnesses that can't be traced back to them very easily. Every bill includes about 20% earmarks for the previously mentioned. It's like a sales commision, but I think it's immoral because I don't want to pay for it, and of course, the debt.
Follow that up with a populace that thinks it's fine to tell someone else what they should give, and why everything is some one else's fault or responsibility. It's a perfect storm.
Now thier idea of shouting out against political or industrial robbery is fine. Funny how the mainstream media assigns motive. Most complainers either want something, or they want to not be paying for something. The rest is pretty much window dressing.
No one is talking about tort reform, or making medical care easier and cheaper to access. That steps on the toes of trial lawyers and licensed doctors.
Newt Gingrech and Hilary Clinton worked together (breifly) to find an affordable way to bring healthcare to people at a much lower cost. I want that. A bipartisan way to modernize healthcare with computers and home access where doctors and billing are reduced, yet medical accidents are reduced as well.
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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2009, 04:05:53 PM »
For the all of human history we have made the same mistake.

We try to grow out of our problems:
Farmer is poor needs help on the farm has lots of kids to do the work. Some lived some died....
In the senoral ( SP ) system in old lower Canada the farmer would subdivide his porperty to give to his sons. It didn't take to long befrore the land could not suport a man let alone a family.
In order to suport 19 century Empires the same things happened we need to bring wealth in from other place once the mother counrty has outgrown its own food and raw material needs. Eventualy empires ( and super powers ) fall when they no longer can pay the bills.
Today we continue to try and grow out of old age pension problems and medicare issues. Its not the boomers fault they got old and its not the solution for us to bring in more people to fill a job void that does not exist.

Now in 2009 we have seen once again you can't grow beyond your means this time by borrowing on credit. But we are still trying to grow our way out of trouble with all the spending gov has done and they borrowed it to do it to boot!

People I know the idea of rationing disgusts a lot of you free martket conservative believers. But we have reached a point where the capacity of the nation to carry more people  ona free for all system has passed ( in the US at any rate ) .

Valueless papper money with nothing got back it.
Imports of every type of comodity to cover shortfalls
An ecconomic and production system based on the need for continued growth fast trun over and planned obsolesnce.

If we want to get old without fear we need to find ways to do it that do not force us to steal from the furture ( debt ).
Reduce the need for imports ( export of wealth ) especialy the here today am burned off kind.
Keep growth in check along with population so we can aford to leave someting for the future and pay the bills today.

That much said about my ecconomic theory we need tomake choices about how we willcare for people knowing we don not have the option of unlimiited growth. We need to learn to be responsible for how we live and stay healthy. We need to know the limits for what we can afford to pay to cure and care for and we need to plan ahead. Socialized medicne is very good at setting limits but realy sucks at finding efficiency. Free markets are good at being efficient but need to grow to pay the bills.

And a 3rd way has not been put forward for this or any of our other problems....
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SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2009, 05:50:12 PM »
Doug,
That was a good summary, and describes the aging of nations.
In Holland, the Gov't collects the money for health care, then disburses it as coupons for citizen to buy care from competitive providers. That is one way to keep capitalism working it's eficiency thing, but also having the total number of dollars pe-set so crooks in the system can't easily 'grow' the costs.
I don't believe that the US is in it's sunset years.
However I do agree that it will be if we stay on our current course.
Just staying on health care, I believe the undiscussed modernization of health care delivery can cut costs enough to do the job if the sacred rice bowl can be broken.
The primary special interests here are: the People Seeking Care, The Providers of Care, The Lawyers, The Financiers.
Some in this group have met with the writers of he Health care reform bill to make sure thier rice bowl is not damaged.
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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2009, 07:27:52 PM »
Iron rice bowls how interesting you know that old leftists/chinese proverb.

I dont know how the Dutch system works but I bet it should be looked at VERY closely....

Sunset years Probably not but the age of the super power is coming to a close not just for the US but in general because of the true cost of money wasted on weapons and Empire building ( no empire can last ).

All this postering in the arctic right now bother me because as the ice melts people think there is this treasure trove of resources up there. All the time and money wasted on building up our navy and build new bases to " Protect our assets ' from the no "Goonick Russians" and "mine mine mine Americans"....
Tell you how that plays out right now What ever money is in the ground will be wasted 4 fold over building ships and arguing about and well all end up DEAPER in debt.....

This was a stupid idea....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris_Mine
« Last Edit: August 21, 2009, 07:32:27 PM by Doug »
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LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2009, 07:45:04 PM »
Doug:  

Good Synopsys of two economic systems.  In socialist systems or, the big bear, communist systems the rationing of goods and services usually ends up by line waiting.  In the capitalistic model goods and services are rationed by price.  Please understand that goods and services are rationed in any system.  Poor rich people.  I always feel soooo sorry for them.  But whether you throw your weight around with dollars or influences of any kind there will always be a privileged class.

We’re broke very much like the USSR was twenty-some years ago.  We are going to hit some very rough times.  For whom is the road always bumpiest?  The poor and the aged.  Now I fit into one of those groups but the really tough part is that around 1/3 (pretty close I think) of the poor are under the age of 12.  I’m shooting for self sufficiency.  What about government subsidized ice flows?  The polar bears would be brought back from the edge of extinction and Al Gore would be refuted.  Win - Win.
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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #81 on: August 21, 2009, 09:52:20 PM »
Well the Average Soviet person was healthier and lived longer than the Average American from what I read. Basic health care and a healthier diet and lifestyle were the main reasons. However Chronic conditions in the soiviet union meant you were likely not going to live as long as an American with say a bad heart of lung desease ( with insurance ).

This is realy pointless to discuss however because that was 20 years ago and we live in today under a completely different system with new challenges.

 
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LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #82 on: August 22, 2009, 12:43:50 AM »
Doouuuug?

What's so different?

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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #83 on: August 22, 2009, 01:51:24 AM »
Well for starters the expensive care unit now has more kinds of tests and test equipment than ever before in history. Even the best hospitals 20 years ago were basicly telling you lung cancer for example was a death sentence. Now we have better ( read expensive ) treatments and better diagnostics to catch it earlier ( read starts getting expensive sooner )....

Aids used to be a death sentence but like so many other conditions thanks to modern drugs AIDS has now almost become cronic and people live for years and years longer....

Just two examples of why health care is exploding in cost....
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DRDEATH

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #84 on: August 22, 2009, 04:44:35 AM »
I guess I would like to put in my 2 cents. Of course with inflation it would now equal 2000 dollars. Our nation has been strong all those years because we had something the rest of the world wanted. It seemed to continue to work because we had open arms for everyone who wanted to come and in return the imagrints made a commitement to the US. This is still happening but not as it use to be. We have a large share of people who just come here for a free ride. A large share of people. I know the arguements that these people are doing jobs no one else would do. The "JOBS" were being done by Americans before and they would still be done if no one else would do them. unemployment is at its all time high and the lower class jobs are still in demand.

Now the next problem is that the quality of our health care is second to none. In most ways this is good. People are living much longer than even 50 years ago. It has been predicted that 90 % of a persons medical expense is spent the last 6 months of thier life. Twenty years ago this was less than 50 %. This has created a large expence towards government and private insurance companies.

Another is that ther is a large influx of people who have never donated a penny towards medical coverage and yet they expect the same medical treatment that everyone else who has been paying thier entire life. People are crossing the boarder at such an alarming rate it would scare you. We have girls coming to the US to have thier babies just so number one they get better care and number two the babies are citizens. Well for all of you who didn't know obstrecticts is one of the largest malpractice specialities only second to neuro surgery. Now these woman have had no prenatal care. If the babies are born with complications it is not unsual to spend 1/2 million dollars on them. You have to spend it because if you dont even if they are not citizens there are lawyers out there that will help them get paid for what they think is our fault.

Next I suppose explain why health care continues to climb. Some of it is related to greed. This is only a small precentage of it. There are more test run than use to be. The cost of these test continues to climb. This is all because there is no such thing as an HONEST MISTAKE and in some cases it really wasn't a mistake. It use to be that sometimes things just did not turn out the way we thought it would. We use to call them risk. Risk now are considered mistakes until proven other wise. Litigation cost a fair amount of everyones doctor bill they get every time the visit the doctor.

Now we have the BABY BOMMERS hitting the retirement age. The average family is now 2 to 3 members. This includes the parents. Inother words the average family of 2 parents and 3 or 4 children is almost unheard of except minorities. This is why anglo's are slowly becoming a minority with the hispanic slowly becoming # 1.

So what are the solutions. Solutions are like belly buttions, everyone has one. One solution wil be that people who live in the US are going to have to start respecting the US and work for a stronger US. I cant tell you how much is irks me when I hear how crappy the US is just before someone expects medical care with no intention to pay for it. I have other ideas of what might help bu I will keep them to myself. I dont wish to offend anyone. Almost all of us were imagrints at one time. So I suppose I need to come down from my soab box and quit befoe I offend someone. DRDEATH

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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #85 on: August 22, 2009, 04:02:52 PM »
Seems to me first things first the Gov needs to look at what they need to do and stay only in the buisness of doing those things....

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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #86 on: August 31, 2009, 02:48:38 AM »
I think this thread died a premature death.....

Opinion please.

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johnny williams

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #87 on: August 31, 2009, 03:13:07 AM »
First secure the borders. Second put the free loaders to work. if nothing else picking up trash along the highways, must pass drug test to get check. Send all illleagles back from whence they came. If we can trace one damn cow from slaughter back to across borders and back to its mother we can surely find all of these damned illeagles. vote NO on this damned health care\obama care\insurence reform what ever you want to call it. This is just another foot in the door. We have enough feet in the door after W and hell I voted for him. If this crap is passed I think it will be time to feed the tree, if the time has not already passed. I will not even start on a certain religous group of peace that needs to be reighned in.

Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #88 on: August 31, 2009, 03:25:38 AM »
Well becareful not all those nice private entrprisers ( Privateers ) are realy on your side.


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LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #89 on: August 31, 2009, 03:32:04 PM »
Let them eat bread!
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