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Author Topic: Government health care  (Read 69401 times)

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2009, 05:32:03 PM »
I agree. End crony capitalism. End Federal Reserve. Limit Fractional Banking. Stop Deficit Spending. No workee - No getee. We are too top heavy, supporting the political class and their cronies. They are not helping us, they are gleaning us and leaving unfunded promises that can not be kept.
The economic and cultural convulsions would result in illegals fleeing for the borders.
Be prepared to feed you neighbor and cousin like in the old days.... :-\
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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2009, 09:28:14 PM »
You have to be careful sometimes you don't go to far.

I no workee and I no gettee right now thanks to an incr4easingly ugly strike.

Howver I realy wanna workee right now and I suspect this of most people.....

Good news I hear the ecconomy is growing again. Don't you all just feel spiffy now?
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2009, 10:38:19 PM »
Doug;
Of course I say that somewhat tounge in cheek. My point being that responsibility in society does not go away just because the people might cut off the government funding.
Family and church used to take up that job, but with some strings attached that usually had the recipient wanting to get back on their feet a little sooner? No-one could say it was evenly distributed or fair.
Hope the economy picks up quick, and you get back to work at a decent wage.
Scott
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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #93 on: September 01, 2009, 01:16:49 AM »
Well I don't see any end in sight the company is for the first time ever trying to restart opperations durring a strike.

I have some bad feelings about that not just because they are showing no interest in negotiating but because there are some significant safety issues they don't seem to care about. The Staff they are going to send into the stopes haven;t done this kind of work in some cases for avery long time and the areas they will be working ( the richest and best areas ) also tend to be some of the most labour intensive and dangerous.

I have friend going in there and I worry about them to be honest. No mallace they have been told to do this its not an option for them.

I have a job interview so hopefuly I can back to work untill this all plays out.

And the sooner we all start to get back to work the sooner there will be money there for what ever comes out of this health care things you folks are so concerned over.... 
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mkdutchman

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #94 on: September 04, 2009, 12:35:07 PM »
Doug,
hoping you can get work soon  :)

and yes, big corporations may not be your friend, but then again neither is big government  :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRaOBWegbCQ

MeanListerGreen

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #95 on: September 04, 2009, 03:25:00 PM »
Didn't have time to read all the posts but I can share my experiences while living in the UK for 4 years in 1986 to 1990.  It was excellent and free, no complaints.

Our taxes are about the same. 



My recent experiences with heathcare here in the good ole beloved US of A are:   getting rush through a yearly physical exam in about 12 minutes so the provider could get as many done in an hour as possible to imrove profits.  Having all my ailments basically ignored. 

Having my pharmecutical medications dropped because the insurance didn't want to pay for them anymore. 

1 round of blood tests a month for 4 months totaling $13,000 (yes that is right, thousands), of which I had to pay 20 percent.  I finally told the arthritus doctor I couldn't pay for those monthly blood tests so he told me he couldn't keep me on the arthritus medicine so now I live in alot of pain. 

I spent 5 hours on a gurnee in an emergency room with several other people, with 2 iv's and a few xrays and got a bill for $8,000.  That was my portion. I was sent home after a few shoulder shrugs by the ER doctors because they had no idea why I lost consciousness 3 times that day (no I hadn't been drinking).

I am insured and considered to be lucky to be insured.  God help those who have no insurance. 

I would gladly move back to the UK if I could.  I was once very patriotic, but I really don't care to live in this country anymore.

BTW. In case you haven't figured it out yet,  big corporations = big governement.
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unimogr

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #96 on: September 04, 2009, 11:11:54 PM »

Stan

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2009, 04:14:06 AM »
Just my $0.02 worth...I've been spending 12 hours per day or so up on the new roof, and am so tired I'm asleep by 8pm so haven't checked or read all the postings, sorry guys.

Got to chime in on this one though.  Been a proponent of government sponsored health care all my life.  Tommy Douglas is my hero.  Problem in Canada now is the neo-con governments (up here the provincial governments are responsible for health care) are trying like crazy to kill it.  Their best strategy is to try and underfund it to starve it to death.  Unfortunately for them, fortunately for me, there's an election every few years and they try and buy our votes by dumping enough $$$$ into the pot that it's just barely staying alive.

We have a libertarian think tank out west here called the "Fraser Institute" thats mission statement proudly promotes it's mission is to "redirect public attention to the role of competative markets in providing for the well being of the public in health and education".  Yah right?   ???   Since when has "competative markets" ever been interested in the well being of anybody except maybe the CEO and a handfull of his buddies.

I thought the recent shenanigans of the high and mighty south of the border getting the million dollar bonuses for running their companies into the ground would have taught us something about "competative markets".  :-\  I guess not up here in BC anyway.

Irish Artist

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2009, 05:58:58 AM »
How easy we seem to forget what it was that made our countries great.

And as we choke out the last of the free enterprise. . .  we wonder. . .  what's going wrong?
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AdeV73

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2009, 09:03:55 AM »

We have a libertarian think tank out west here called the "Fraser Institute" thats mission statement proudly promotes it's mission is to "redirect public attention to the role of competative markets in providing for the well being of the public in health and education".  Yah right?  ???  Since when has "competative markets" ever been interested in the well being of anybody except maybe the CEO and a handfull of his buddies.


Actually Stan, in earlier times (early to mid C20th  England, in particular), companies did rather well by their workforces, recognising that a happy healthy workforce meant better productivity, better staff retention, etc. This was also true of some Victorian companies, although not all for sure. As soon as Government steps in, however - with the NHS in the UK - it ceases to be worthwhile for an employer to provide their own healthcare. Especially as they're having to pay for the national one as well.

Interestingly, when the economy is doing well and companies are struggling to recruit workers, the provision of private healthcare is often added to an employment package to make it seem more attractive to potential employees. You won't see much of that just now, though, as there's loads of potental workers, many of whom will do anything for a job.

Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #100 on: September 09, 2009, 02:54:02 PM »
Stan is right about the way the Provincial goverments cheap out on health care them spend like drunken salorts at electrion time. Thats killing things....

Good health care is not a buisness its a right. There is room for buisness in health care but the goals need to be make and keep people well not create wealth for share holders.

If we have learned anything since the 80s about free markets and loosening regulations on big buisness they always take advantage of that to enrich the share holders. Sometimes this is good if your an big investor or pension fund. But the little guy doesn't gain much. Infact all throw the growth of the 80s and 90s working people lost ground ( those at least that didn't have strong unions and COLA built into contracts ). The people that did make a lot of money didn't pay a lot of tax on it. Big money invested in ways to make more money and often that lead to job looses and out sourcing.

Now the tax base has eroded and we have a mess. You can't blame big buisness their job is to make money and social costs are not their cost.

Ye sin the past there were many big buisnesses that looked after their workers, but those days are gone. Todays worker is a cost he is a cost to train and a cost to care for, his retirement is a cost and his family is a cost. His skills are not a value as they used to be because most jobs do not require years of hand on experience and craftsmanship. Manual labour is done by machines or cheaper in som cases to off shore.

This is the new reality buisness has to survive by cutting costs and people. Deskilling work and ridding themselfs of liabilities pensions and benefits.

Goverment has to decide if they are going to step into the roll that employers once filled and they need to figuere out what is a priority in the new world and who to tax to pay for it.... 
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mkdutchman

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #101 on: September 09, 2009, 05:56:09 PM »
Just my $0.02 worth...I've been spending 12 hours per day or so up on the new roof, and am so tired I'm asleep by 8pm so haven't checked or read all the postings, sorry guys.

<snip>

I thought the recent shenanigans of the high and mighty south of the border getting the million dollar bonuses for running their companies into the ground would have taught us something about "competative markets".  :-\  I guess not up here in BC anyway.

Stan,
don't confuse government controlled businesses as being "competitive markets" In a normal world those companies would be out of business by dint of their unscrupulous business practices, not labeled as "too big to fail" and then tossed billions of taxpayer dollars.

And BTW did you know there is another health care bill floating around congress these days? You don't hear much about it what with the thug-in-chief and the media doing their best to foist their own monstrosity on us but check it out

http://rsc.tomprice.house.gov/Solutions/EmpoweringPatientsFirstAct.htm

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #102 on: September 09, 2009, 06:08:08 PM »
Doug:
You assert in the begining of your post that health care is a RIGHT.
Then you go on thru the rest of your post proving that it is not.
Healthcare would be much better for you if it were directed by you. The only way that can happen is if you are controlling the money going in to your own care. No-one else (except your family) has as much interest in your health as you do.
"He who pays the piper calls the tune".
Health care bennefit should be a pay addendum from your employer. You direct that toward your health care bills, with overages into a healthcare savings account, or an insurance account. You shop for the best deal or the best quality....taylored to whatever you think is best for you. Your care runs out when your money runs out.
Every other system will let you down all along the way. It runs up big government debt and robs people not yet born.
What's best for me or for my society? I don't know what to say.
*while I was writing this mkdutchman posted the link to Empowering Patients First Act. That looks like it has possibilities to cover both of the scenareos I described.
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apogee_man

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #103 on: September 09, 2009, 09:58:40 PM »
Quote
Your care runs out when your money runs out.

The current system is flat unworkable.

Why?

Because costs are rising at about 22% per year, year over year.

Are your wages rising at that pace?

How about the company you're working for?  Is it growing at that pace? 

Are prices of their products or labor increasing at that pace?

I am all for a govt offered option.  I don't want the govt deciding anything for my care, but I would like the option.  If they were smart, they would create a huge fund and self insure from that.  If the insurance companies decided they wanted to compete, fine.  If not, then goodby.

All the while, I would have the option of choosing what insurance I wanted.

It also INFURIATES me that I walked into the ER with no insurance about a year ago and am charged prices three times higher than the insurance companies pay, and I was paying cash!

I would love to see the entire system decimated and rebuilt from the ground up.

And, no I don't buy the whole "govt can't run it BS".  Funny thing is we are 37th in quality of care of industrial countries.  Seems interesting that the countries that are doing better than us don't have folks dropping like flies and the govts in many cases are overseeing their healthcare.

Just like I shouldn't need to go see a GP to get a referral to a specialist that I already know I needed to see...

It's stupid.

Steve

Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #104 on: September 09, 2009, 11:40:48 PM »
Shipchief we are in the beginning of something that scares the crap out of me. An era where power and money are concetrating themselves in the hands of people who do not have our best interests at heart. People who enrich themselves at our expence and beat us over the head sying THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT AND YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT.

I have no idea how to solve this problem or do I even undersatnd the scope of it.

But something is wrong when a baby in Cuba has  a lower risk of death than the USA. Thats just an example I would not want to live in Cuba as is because from my own personal experince the place is fucked I been there and seen that.

Now the world is fucked because we can't pay our bills and no matter how hard I try or you or the next guy we are falling behind the real cost of paying for everything from a trip to the doctors office to pint beer and no one seems to want to blame goverment AND big buisness. OUR pension funds are to blame, the banks are to blame Gov is to blame, robots are to blame scarce cheap oil is to blame.
You and I are to blame.....

So does throwing a baby in the lake to teach him to swim solve the problem?
Does codling the union people like me solve the problem?
Does electing a Fascist or Socialist gov solve the problem?

Damned if I know but brother we have a problem......
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken