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Author Topic: Government health care  (Read 53283 times)

mkdutchman

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #135 on: September 14, 2009, 05:32:15 PM »
Dear MLG,

Good food for thought. 

Did you know the big ever expanding government post office is reducing staff this year?  (Leno joked that they didn't know why but the layoff notices were being emailed by the end of the week.)

$200!  WOW!  Back when I was in the game - pre Medicare and paying for my health insurance by check I was paying $250 for an HMO.  My wife was another $250.  It was the largest single purchase per year we made.  When she qualifies for Medicare her monthly premium will drop to about $120.  She could stay with the private $250 program but I think she'll opt for the $120.  Oh, same HMO.
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Second, my $200 a month church sponsered medical plan
The whole family or per person?  And then

The entire family. Any children get thrown in for free. Oh yes, it's run practically by volunteers, BTW. Kinda removes the "big greedy profit driven insurance company" from the equation.

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First, I have nothing to do with Social Security and Medicare. zip, zilch, nada.
How do you have $2400 a year “Second” and yet have none of the “First”?

I view the second as being more a "pooling of resources so we can survive" created by and run by its members.

No, the government does not constitute a pooling of resources

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I'm sure you give thanks for your special wonderful life.  You live in a disappearing world that is simply not available to most US citizens.  In my neighborhood; fire, police, education (majority) and many other services are delivered by well paid government employed professionals.  I too respect and appreciate their service and their choice of career.  But in most of the US (by population) these services are PAID FOR by tax dollars.  Ah, the tyranny of the majority. ;)

<snip>

Ever wonder why it’s wrong to depend on the government and smart to be dependent on “for profit” poly-national corporations?  It’s a complicated world out here in the “real” Amerika.  We need to band together if we’re going to succeed.

Casey


If the "special wonderful life" is disappearing, why is that? Why isn't that raising red flags and alarm bells? I referenced it before, Lowgear, but have you ever explored the mentality of a welfare community? Or explored the reasons why they got there?

For me the bottom line is,

why should I need or want someone else to do the things for me that it is my responsibility to do,

and even more importantly,

why should I be obligated to pay/support/be compelled to support someone else's responsibility?

LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #136 on: September 14, 2009, 06:28:54 PM »
Dear mkdutchman,

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If the "special wonderful life" is disappearing, why is that?
My guess is increasing density of population.

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big greedy profit driven insurance company
You left out “corporate owner”?  Corporation – The pooling of resources to do bigger and get higher returns on investment stuff without personal liability nor responsibility.  Is there a direct inverse correlation between corporate influence and the reduction of “special wonderful life”?

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why should I need or want someone else to do the things for me that it is my responsibility to do,
and even more importantly,
why should I be obligated to pay/support/be compelled to support someone else's responsibility?
This could be used as a definition for a democratic and or republic style of government.  Interdependence for the benefit of its members.

I'd still like to live in Marcus Land.  I like living in a world where I don’t owe much of anything to anyone but the sense of community has a definite magnetism about it.

DIGRESSION:
     I’ve redone my Medicare math.  This government conspiracy is only saving me about $130 a month.  These commies have pushed personal responsibility on me by raising my co pays.  If I want the same co pays and prescription coverage my savings would drop to about $60 a month.  But I have faith in my good health and life style consequences.  I simply prefer a system than profits more by my good health than by my illness.  I guess I have too much respect for the power of profit.

Casey
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mbryner

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #137 on: September 14, 2009, 07:06:47 PM »
Quote
For me the bottom line is,

why should I need or want someone else to do the things for me that it is my responsibility to do,

and even more importantly,

why should I be obligated to pay/support/be compelled to support someone else's responsibility?

Amen to that.

Casey, the gov't knows so much about me already that it doesn't matter what I write anywhere.  There are all kinds of ways besides Google to "observe" anyone.  They have each and every one of my fingerprints multiple times over.   I have to report to multiple state and fed agencies if I move (because of medical licenses).   If I really feared what anyone was thinking I wouldn't write it.   I became a Libertarian a while back.   I'm not an anarchist, but I did leave the Republican party a long time ago.     I run Linux/Unix/Mac because of viruses and greater OS stability, and I hide my e-mail because of spam.
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LowGear

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #138 on: September 15, 2009, 02:34:35 AM »
Hi mbryner,

I'm not too concerned about the big bad government either.  They have enough nasty unhappy people to chase after.  I'm concerned about blurbs left on professional boards and ears by “concerned” citizens.  I’ve been smoked a couple of times for my big mouth, learned to be a little careful and was only passing my unfortunate education on to be sure you and our fellow Listeroids understood from where and to whom we speak even on this forum.

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mbryner

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #139 on: September 15, 2009, 06:22:08 AM »
OK.   Fair enough.   Thank you.   :)
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Johnnypig

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #140 on: November 26, 2009, 02:17:06 PM »
Hello all I couldn't resist... shedding some light here. There is a myth out there that docs are all making big bucks and I thought I should set you straight. "I know this guy" who is a doctor, a general surgeon in a semi-rural area. He Bills out about 1 million dollars of work each year and has done so for about 21 years now. He worked hard as a youth when many of his friends were out drinking and carousing, he believed the "work hard and study and you'll get ahead" story that was taught at that time and was generally true. He finished four years of college and four years of med school both of which were fairly difficult. He then went through five more years of a truly grueling experience known as surgical residency where one actually Learns how to do surgery. Surgical residents hang up their lives on a coathanger at the beginning and when they return to try it on after five years it doesn't fit anymore. The experience changes them, most of these changes are for the better but some are less welcome. Rebirth by fire and such as that. My point is that they sacrifice a lot . They dont really start earning until their early thirties and most are heavily in debt when the get out to practice, often to the tune of $120,000 - $150,000 for their education. Then comes mortgage, kids schools, office expenses, malpractice insurance and all the rest. Here's the interesting part.... nobody in medicine gets paid what they bill, (Except perhaps the plastic surgeons since much is not covered by insurance) All of their Fees are determined by someone else, usually the insurance company with medicare and medicaid as a basic guideline. Medicare will pay this doc i know about 30- 35 cents on the dollar billed and medicaid last time he was brave enough to look paid him 16 cents on the dollar billed. Now remember the fee is already set so he can inflate his bill all he wants but still only gets the paltry predetermined sum. No.... not the $50,000 that the Kenyan thinks is paid for an amputation, try about $450-$650 for said operation. And that includes all of the pre care and aftercare that can go on for weeks. It's a bundled payment all included. Last time I checked you could hardly get a brake job on your S.U.V. or a new set of tires for said vehicle for that amount. SOoo Old Obee was either seriously uninformed (scary) or intentionally disingenuous (also scary) you choose. So .... Doc bills out a Million bucks, He Collects maybe $350,000 then through various Taxes....Income federal... income State.... Sales Tax... Property tax, etc etc etc all in alll fully 50% of what this guy earns disappears before he ever sees it, perhaps more. ( I heard Tax Freedom Day was August 23 this year!!!) Oh and dont forget Malpractice insurance! yes it is tax deductible as are office expenses but the bottom line is This guy can hardly stay in business. And that 's NOW wait till the Fed's take full controll.... After all that's what it's all about ...Control.... isn't it? The Dirty secret about the demonization of the insurance industry is that without them there would be no healthcare. (By the way ... a Very high risk, high stress business it is) You see... because Medicare and Medicaid drastically underpay hospitals, the hospital has to Overbill the well insured patient to stay in business. This is called Cost Shifting and is standard practice. (this is why a cotton ball costs $6 on your hospital bill.) Now there will be no affordible private insurance after a while since none can compete with the cost (free) ... (except to the taxpayer) public option. Yes Oprah and Brad and the Obamas and the congress and the other beautiful people will still be able to purchase expensive policies but they will no longer be "Cadillac" plans but "Ferrari" plans and most of us won't be able to afford it. Further paycuts in Docs fees are planned so how long before all the good ones quit or retire and "Joe the meat guy" is the one taking out your appendix, which, by the way, burst because you had to wait so long. I could go on but I won't.
Your Grandma had it right... "You get what you pay for"
Soviet workers had it right also..."They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work"
Will American Doctors be next?.... Something like "They pretend to pay us and we pretend to give a crap"!?
Altruism only goes so far..... will we never learn?
All the Best
JP

lowspeedlife

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #141 on: November 26, 2009, 03:04:12 PM »
Thanks Johnny, I agree, & I see a time when there will only be "government doctors" imagine that. The one thing that would help is tort reform but because the current administration & the demacratic party are bank rolled by the lawyers (that most of them happen to be) it will never happen in the current administration.

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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #142 on: November 27, 2009, 01:45:13 AM »
Johny my family doctor is named " Ed ", He's also a general surgeon....
I call with a sick boy and we are in to see him the next day....
He drives a Volvo....
I see him in his Volvo and wave he flips me the bird and passes me ( or sometime I do it first just for a laugh )

Is he paid enough?
I sometimes doubt it, but he is a Canadian Doctor in a Northern City and he wants to be here doing what he does. I suspect most doctors are like that American or Canadian. If you want to be rich become NY banker and steal peoples money its far easier. Do people become doctors in order to not heal people think about it?

If you ask Ed about socialized medicine I suspect he would tell you something like he's OK with it...
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #143 on: November 27, 2009, 03:19:16 AM »
I hear on the news Sarah Palin told a canadian "22 minutes" researcher that the Canadian government should scrap government sponsored health care and the the for-profit private corporations handle all health care.  What a hypocrite!

I find it sadly amusing that the so-called christian right movement in the US ascribes to the tenents of christianity, except when it comes to caring for the sick and the poor and the meek who shall inherit the earth.  Oh, wait a minute, isn't that straight out of the teachings of that guy, what's his name, Jesus?
Stan

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #144 on: November 27, 2009, 04:32:31 AM »
She was talking to Mary Walsh... not a researcher, and by the looks of Mary's patented gotch interview styles the Americans where not impressed, but Ms Palin was playing along..  Come on Stan quoting this hour as 22 minutes?  Next you will be saying the East Angllan College has a great reputation in Climate change :D

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Johnnypig

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #145 on: November 27, 2009, 03:11:36 PM »
Johny my family doctor is named " Ed ", He's also a general surgeon....
I call with a sick boy and we are in to see him the next day....
He drives a Volvo....
I see him in his Volvo and wave he flips me the bird and passes me ( or sometime I do it first just for a laugh )

Is he paid enough?
I sometimes doubt it, but he is a Canadian Doctor in a Northern City and he wants to be here doing what he does. I suspect most doctors are like that American or Canadian. If you want to be rich become NY banker and steal peoples money its far easier. Do people become doctors in order to not heal people think about it?

If you ask Ed about socialized medicine I suspect he would tell you something like he's OK with it...



Doug, Thanks for taking the time to read my rant....Your response is that which I hear a lot....and I don't entirely disagree with it. No-one goes into medicine or surgery "to get rich", I would argue however that given the level of preparation involved and the stress/risk level (especially in today's cynical environment) that it is not asking too much to make enough to keep the doors open and have something left for Mama and the kids. What could be better than work that helps people, is socially acceptable, and in which every day is challenging and interesting? Add an adequate take-home salary and you have the Perfect "Job". This is how it used to be..... not any more. For the past 20 years re-imbursements have ratcheted down 2-3% per year.... there is no slack and not much left after uncle gets his cut. Your Buddy the Doc may be happy or unhappy but as a professional he certainly wouldn't let his patient see it. We are not talking "rich" or "not rich" here anymore... we are talking "in business" or "not in business". And one must ask oneself why has there been an ongoing attack on Private practitioners? Well I'd wager if you get to the bottom of it, our old friends "Money and Control" are once again smiling at us. The Feds dont want to destroy Doctors ... just break the back of private practitioners, and bring them all under their control. Guidelines and cookbook medicine all as orchestrated by the Health commitee. (Why... Cost control) Look at the furor over Mammograms lately. Obviously one more cost control nail in the coffin.
I find it amusing that For my friend the doc ... They pay him 1/3 of what he bills then on april 15 they take half of it back and turn around and use it to underpay him, or give it to someone else.
He told me about a Medicaid patient who drove into the E.R. lot in a Cadillac Escilade! He parked next to it in his beat up old Subaru when he came in !! Doug your Doc friend is a valuable asset hold onto him. I'd wager he entered medicine long before all of this started if not then he must be a real Priest. You will see fewer and fewer of these people as time goes on. Heck there are already shortages of Docs all over. Compassion is a fine thing but I'd take a smart thanks but less compassionate physician over a dumb one with a bleeding heart anyday. And I REALLY don't want to have a disgruntled guy with a knife standing over me as I am put to sleep!
 Anyway thanks again for the input. Have a nice Day all.

" From each according to his abilities, to each according to his need" Ha.

JP

Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #146 on: November 27, 2009, 05:07:02 PM »
Well last thing I saw before my synous surgery ( done by another doctor ) was Ed standing outside the opperating theater making sick faces and gestures. And my Nurse was the security and first aid girl from the mine where I worked ( she moonlights as a security gaurd ). Her last comments were hey this guy is here for a Boob job right, don't worry Dougy I'll make sure your good and stacked when you wake up

Humor is something there is a lot of here at least people in the medical field up here get frustrated by the budget limitaion and waiting and short staff.
Medicine is rationed in Canada I had to wait months to get my synouses drilled because other people needed their tickers worked on or cancer cut out. But its fair OHIP will not stop spending to try and save your life once the Machinery is rolling and the need is identified as critical, but your going to wait for plastic hip joints ect.

If I told you you had to give lobster and champane, you might be restricted in what gourmet foods you could buy and how much but everyone in america would get cheap nutrisious food and no one would be hungry again would you think thats fair? Probably not....

If all you ever knew was everyone in America was eating a healthy diet and there was no hunger and I sugested you change that so the well off could eat better at the expense of the poor would you except that? I guess it depends on your personal feelings about what is fair and what is not. Sugesting to a Canadian to give up socialized health care with all its flaws so some get better care and some will die or go broke is a lot like that.

The question you people need to ask yourself. Is it reasonable to give up fast effective expensive health care that some people can't afford to cover everyone with a level of rationed care that protects everyone from unreasonable debts and loss of life.
The other question is can you aford to continue to spend as much as you do for an imperfect system that costs on a national level significantly more than than we pay here?

And no I didn't wake up with boobs and my synouses are good now.
My uncle had his lung cancer cured.
My son has his adnoids out no issues ( but like me had to wait ).

Some fell through the cracks here too. My Chum Glem was sent home to die because they thought his cancer was too far gone.He had a PET scan instead of an MRI that missed the true nature of his cancer . He paid for an MRI in the USA and the US doctors said there was a still a chance. He had the surgery in Canada after showing the doctors the results of these tests and he is alive today although there is a very good chance he will have it return. Rationing has a dark side sometimes things are missed in an effort to save money. But over all  its something I can afford
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lowspeedlife

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #147 on: November 27, 2009, 10:13:24 PM »
The real problem with all this is that we have 300 million American citizens. By the Presidents accounting we have 47 million with out health care insurance in this country. I say health care insurance because if there is some thing really wrong with you & you go to the hospital they, by law, have to treat you. By most accounts we have 20 million illegal aliens living here that, no matter what Obama says, will be included in this legislation because the bills before congress have already stipulated that they can't check your immigration status. And by the presidents own admittion 18 million will still not be covered. SOOOO 273 million Americans who have health care, like their health care are perfectly happy with their health care have to have what they like & are happy with taken over & destroyed by the government for 9 million Americans??


Seems like the right & prudent thing to do would be to expand the medicare system to handle them. that would allow those that have what they like to keep it & those without could be covered for a lot less that a trillion dollars. yea right!! a trillion is a joke, every government program in existence costs at least 9 times what it was expected to.


I sure wish I could find the clip of Robert B. Reich saying what they really want to do. basically it was: if you are old or have something really wrong with you, forget it, were not going to waste time, effort & money on you.

 But the jerk off from South Carolina says that the republicans want you to die if you are old

Wake up people, this IS about every body getting the same care: they want everyone to get the cheapest low budget half assed care possible.

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Doug

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #148 on: November 27, 2009, 11:36:01 PM »
Basicly thats what we have in Canada the cheapest possible health care that you can get by on. Its costs us nationaly about 2/3 what you pay per person and everyone is covered. I think we could possibly get riod of all the delays and waste and aproach what an American considers good private sector health care and still cover everyone without spending more than Americans pay.

Trouble is who wants to pay more taxes?

In Ontario if you can't prove you a Canadian with an OHIP card you don't get health care ( unless you are dying ). I don't think its reasonable to get free healthcare if you don't live there and pay taxes. I also disagree with the American concept of born here and your American. It snot like that here if a Pregnant mexican mom sneaks into Canada and has a baby they both get deported ( and a bill for delivering the baby ) .

If your Canadian and have a child in the USA (I happens all the time ) your child is American and can aply for and keep Canadian citizen ship when you get home. That's nuts isn't there enough leagal Canadians in the USA already without that loop hole lol ( ducking cause my Dad and his green card are probably offended by that )?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2009, 11:39:56 PM by Doug »
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