Author Topic: Government health care  (Read 53338 times)

tlfrantz1

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Government health care
« on: August 10, 2009, 11:15:56 PM »
Since we are about to get socialized medicine here in the US, I was wondering if the Brits and the Canadians on the forum could advise us of what we have in store...

Thanks!
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AdeV73

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2009, 11:50:16 PM »

Since we are about to get socialized medicine here in the US, I was wondering if the Brits and the Canadians on the forum could advise us of what we have in store...


Hmm... I guess the best way to answer that is to consider the four ways of getting something:

1: You spend your own money, buying something for yourself

In this case, you'll generally seek out the best compromise between affordability, quality, and functionality. You'll end up with pretty much the best value deal available which meets your exact circumstances and requirements.

2: You spend someone else's money, buying something for yourself

In this case, you'll go for the best that money can buy.

3: You spend your money, buying something for someone else

In this case, you'll buy the cheapest you can get away with.

4: You spend someone else's money, buying something for someone else.

Do you honestly give a flying f**k what you get? It's not your money, and you won't benefit.... Probably the first thing that crosses your desk will get bought... or the product from the company which bribes you the best.


Guess what number socialised healthcare is? Hint: It's not a prime number...

apogee_man

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2009, 02:54:35 AM »
Sigh...

We are about to get socialized medical INSURANCE.

Not socialized medicine.

There is a difference.

And either way, I would submit that SOMETHING needs to be done, because the status quo is simply not working...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111676259&ps=cprs

Steve

billswan

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2009, 03:37:37 AM »
Sigh...

We are about to get socialized medical INSURANCE.

Not socialized medicine.

There is a difference.

And either way, I would submit that SOMETHING needs to be done, because the status quo is simply not working...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111676259&ps=cprs

Steve

Thats sure a tear jerking story ,BUT socialized anything and it WILL fail given enough time..............................................

Those lines will just get longer and longer as government socialization just slowly destroys what we do have..

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apogee_man

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 04:05:33 AM »
Bill,

I don't disagree.

However, 45 MILLION uninsured people is inexcusable imho.

At least it's an attempt to get folks covered. 

Even if it's only emergency coverage with a $8k deductible, it would still be better than nothing.

And I, for one, don't mind helping my neighbors out if they get sick or injured; and if that means part of my tax money goes toward that, then so be it.

I'm smart enough to realize that it costs more money to not help, and then have to pay for it anyway once they go to the emergency room, than to treat 95% of the issues before they become major illnesses.

Just my $.02,

Steve

compig

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 10:34:20 AM »
Effectively our NHS service is social medical insurance deducted at salary source , the deductible is termed NI , national insurance. The NHS has been good in the past but is now blighted by performance ratings. This was implemented by the Government to resolve quality issues , ie , the NHS was suffering from negligence like killing people and cutting off the wrong limb etc , etc. Problem is the performance ratings mean that more attention is now paid to management than patient care so the negligence is now worse !!  Then there is the issue of disproportionate demand caused by self inflicted conditions like alcohol abuse , smoking and obesity etc. The government has realised this problem too late and is now virtually having to force people to change their life style to prevent the NHS submerging under the burden of these self indulgent illnesses. In short , it's fcuked up !!
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tlfrantz1

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 12:58:04 PM »
Bill, I know they are calling it 'insurance', but what I've seen and heard is that they are after a single payer system which means that gov't. will pay for all and as a result, will control all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Erushlimbaugh%2Ecom%2Fhome%2Fdaily%2Fsite%5F080409%2Fhome%2Emember%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

And here's Barney Frank:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3BS4C9el98

I'm very worried that all other options will be taken off the table and the gov't. option will be the only one. I also find it telling that gov't. officials won't be under this plan that Obama's proposing...


In Canada and GB, are illegal aliens covered under the NHS?


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billswan

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 01:16:52 PM »
Effectively our NHS service is social medical insurance deducted at salary source , the deductible is termed NI , national insurance. The NHS has been good in the past but is now blighted by performance ratings. This was implemented by the Government to resolve quality issues , ie , the NHS was suffering from negligence like killing people and cutting off the wrong limb etc , etc. Problem is the performance ratings mean that more attention is now paid to management than patient care so the negligence is now worse !!  Then there is the issue of disproportionate demand caused by self inflicted conditions like alcohol abuse , smoking and obesity etc. The government has realised this problem too late and is now virtually having to force people to change their life style to prevent the NHS submerging under the burden of these self indulgent illnesses. In short , it's fcuked up !!

Compig

How may years has nhs had a strangle hold on the citizens?

Was there or is there any private Insurance for health available ?

Thanks for your time!!

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AdeV73

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2009, 01:55:09 PM »
Effectively our NHS service is social medical insurance deducted at salary source , the deductible is termed NI , national insurance.

This is a common mistake, but NI doesn't actually pay for the NHS. A small portion of NI is ring-fenced (about 1% IIRC) for the NHS, the balance coming from general taxation. NI is actually supposedly for the payment of unemployment; but actually it's a giant Ponzi scheme - and is treated as general tax income by the government (successive governments).


Quote
The NHS has been good in the past but is now blighted by performance ratings. This was implemented by the Government to resolve quality issues , ie , the NHS was suffering from negligence like killing people and cutting off the wrong limb etc , etc. Problem is the performance ratings mean that more attention is now paid to management than patient care so the negligence is now worse !!  Then there is the issue of disproportionate demand caused by self inflicted conditions like alcohol abuse , smoking and obesity etc. The government has realised this problem too late and is now virtually having to force people to change their life style to prevent the NHS submerging under the burden of these self indulgent illnesses. In short , it's fcuked up !!

The NHS has never been good, per se - it's always been adequate at best, downright dangerous at worse. Unfortunately, it's become such a political football that it's probably impossible now to do what's needed, which is to scrap the whole thing and replace it with private provision, optionally topped up by government vouchers (which you "buy" by paying your NI stamp, or whatever).


How may years has nhs had a strangle hold on the citizens?

Was there or is there any private Insurance for health available ?


Bill,

The NHS has been going for approximately 60 years now. It would be wrong to claim it has a stranglehold, although it is the default healthcare for a majority of UK residents.

Private healthcare is available, most notably through Bupa, but any number of insurance companies will offer you private care using a mix of NHS, Bupa and other providers.

As a system, it's far from ideal, but it is better than many

panaceabeachbum

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 02:25:34 PM »

However, 45 MILLION uninsured people is inexcusable imho.

The real number is no where near 45 million Americans , the 20 mill + Illegal aliens are not Amercans and cannot be counted , subtract the number of young people that choose not to have health care (young , cheap , stupid etc) and the number is drasticly lower

And I, for one, don't mind helping my neighbors out if they get sick or injured; and if that means part of my tax money goes toward that, then so be it.

I keep hearing libs make this same statement, If his is truely the case then do you give all your money to the uninsured or poor currently ? If so thats great but what makes you think you have the right to do the same with my money ? I personaly dont care how many unsinsured persons there are , Here in the US everyone is gaurenteed medical attention period. 
I currently pay $900 monthly for full coverage insurance for a family of four, medical, dental, optical and perscription , its insurrance I shopped for from at least 20 different options, I did the leg work to choose a plan i liked , made the deal and pay my own way . Everyone in this counttry has the same options , its not rocket science.

We all hit the ground naked and broke and those of us that choose to make our own way and do well in life can buy the things we want , those that dont are rewarded for their laziness and lack of drive with a goverment check , but at no point should that be my problem .
If a person chooses to sit on their ass and collect goverment assistance while I am working 15 hours a day 7 days a week how in the hell are they entitled to a portion of my blood and sweat?

We currently reward the lazy here in the US with free housing and food on the backs of those that get up everyday and produce , keep this up and those of us that actualy pay are just going to give up and sit on our asses like the those "45 million", then lets see where we will be . I guess then we will add vat tax and carbon emmision tax  and pretty much tax (and regulate) every other aspect of life like our friends across the pond.

It amazes me that we left a country because of the strict controls and heavy taxation , Every single person here or at least their ancestors settled here to get away from heavy handed goverment control, yet there are still folks that want the goverment involved in every aspect of our lives . It just amazes me .


While on the subject of tax payer provided welfare programs , why in the hell are welfare recipents not tested for drugs, alcohol and ciggarettes?  I have a neighbor on welfare and medicade (or medicare not sure which) who receivers free housing, power and phone are payed , food stamps . All here medical needs are taken care of , since she has self induced cancer from 30 yrs of cigg smoking. We the taxpayers are shelling out an average of $6k per month to keep this woman taken care of yet she still smokes  and drinks .

If your going to havve a welfare program that hands out the money of hard working people , would it really be that hard to require the recipeants to be drug , alcohol and smoke free?  And why are all the cars in the project nicer than mine???? When I ride past the goverment housing near by everyone has a big screen tv visible thru the front window , yet we have a crappy old 19" am i the only person that sees a problem here?  This socialized single payer health care is just like swabbing a fresh coat of paint on an old wood hulled boat that leaks like a sieve , it may look pretty but its not addressing the problem.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 02:36:11 PM by panaceabeachbum »

panaceabeachbum

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 02:44:50 PM »
If you cant tell I am a Reagan conservative, not a Kool-aid drinking product of NPR

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 04:41:54 PM »
Well.....
Socialized medicine as written up in the House Bill currently being debated does have a few of your reccomendations.... ;)
The bill does have a comittee to determine what 'quality of life' the patient has left, and the cost of treatment will be weighed against that. Maybe unemployed drug and alcohol abusers who smoke will be 'provided for appropriatly'...? Quality of life criteria means Rationing. That will mean refusing care to some people.

Cutting out health care for retirees and folks that don't follow the approved lifestyle guidelines will mean they will die sooner and less social security / welfare will be paid out. That's a 'win-win situation' ....for the budget. Right now the US is having a budget crisis. The baby boomer bulge is reaching retirement, and the $50 trillion cost has never been set aside to pay for it, even though the services were promised to us. You could blame who ever is responsible, including ourselves, but the result is the same. Our kids and grand kids will have to pay for it....or we will have to start doing without.  I believe this is the Dems method of controlling this cost, plus fulfill a desire to get an iron grip control over the population. The Dems are going to have to do it, because the media shouted down any Repub attempt to control costs, few as they were. Getting elected means making promises. This is such a Hot Topic that the it is politically impossible to pass unless the party that cooks it up has the Presidency, the Senate and the House. Even then the Supreme Court will need to be on board.

Like carbon 'cap & trade', it will be rife for coruption. Did you vote 'correctly' during the last election? Well then! I think you need to review your voting and come back after the next election to resubmit for that treatment!!! Um..maybe we didn't have that in mind, but the proposed "Card Check" for Union Organizing is esentially an open ballot on a clip board that everyone else can look at. If 'O' would ask for it on behalf of Unions, is it such a stretch to think that it could have wider appeal?

As we have seen in the EU, Cap & Trade did nothing to reduce emissions, yet fleeced Europeans on energy costs. That's a program that could only be thought up by a criminal mind. Oh! Wait! Ken Lay of Enron cooked up that scheme to sell his money losing wind power. Even though Enron is gone and Ken is dead, His idea lives on because it is a get rich quick scheme for the powerful. These same people are planning your healthcare future.
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Re: Government health care
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 04:58:32 PM »
Simple answere Canadian style medicare is rationed health care and it is underfunded health care.

Politicians will cut spending on health care to pay for other things and you will wait longer.

BUT it does eventualy get the job done and it is cheaper in the long run ( its a very lean system I mean the squeeze every dollar ). The question is can you keep your politicians honest and funding the system at a level that reflects the American need for the " best right now ".

I'm not sure you can afford that.....

But its good for me if you go that way.
It will curb the amount doctors make in the US once the spendng cuts starts. This will prevent a lot of Canadian doctors from going to the USA to make the big money and driving up the labour cost here. If this infact translates into more doctors I don't know but it should styart to level the playing field for health care.
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panaceabeachbum

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 05:02:43 PM »
It should be clear that GE has picked up right where Enron left off , I know I voted correctly but we got a socialist anyway

panaceabeachbum

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Re: Government health care
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2009, 05:06:07 PM »
politicians cant run their own housholds , SS or anything else they get their hands on , what makes anyone think they are cabaple of playing the role of doctor and CEO ?