KISS vs COMPLEX, tell us what you are doing

[mobile_bob]

The alternator thread got me to thinking, clearly there are those that ascribe to the KISS principle
and there are those that ascribe to computer/robotic control over every facet of their system
and there are those that are all over the middle ground.

i thought maybe it might be interesting to see what others are doing, how complex is your system?
how complex do you want it to be? or rather what will it be like when you are done? or what is a perfect
system to you?

go into as much detail as you like, those that are hardcore KISS folks likely won't read all of it, but
those that are on the other end of the spectrum likely will read every word you type.

i will write up my system plan this weekend and post it, and look forward to what you guys are doing.

bob g

[Doug]

I'm banging two bricks together in protest against complexity.

But I firnly believe we need to set up a committe and set time tables and agendas so a formal and clear descision can be made on how excatly bricks should be banged together in a constitutaional sound and religiously neutral way.

Ok Bob I got nothing.....

The real question is not how simple or complex a systenm is it show comfortable you are building and how well it functions in the end.

[mobile_bob]

its late, but if i don't start it won't get done, so here is the first installment

the unit is based on a changfa s195, electric start idi diesel

it drives the following

direct drive of my own design which happens to be a torque limiting unit that will start to slip at about 8kwatt load
and is adjustable to any level i want from approx 4 to over 10 kwatts, it drives an ST7.5 genhead to make both 120and
240vac

my torque limit direct drive also has a provision for up to 4 A or B series belts, i use two of the grooves to drive twin
110-555jho prestolite alternators, both started life as 160amp 12 volt nominal units, they are driven by a pair of AA belts
in a serpentine fashion so that the belts are not trapped and take less than 2 minutes to change when the time comes
one alternator is providing all 12 volt charge functions and the other has been modified to produce either 2.9 kwatt at 28.8 volts
or 4.0 kwatts at 57.6volts dc. the efficiency of the 12volt stock unit averages 54%, the efficiency of the modified unit runs closer to 80%
it matches exactily the efficiency of the st head on a kwatt/kwatt basis of fuel consumption in gr/kwatt/hr. this detail is important to the
overall efficiency discussion of another thread.

i also drive off this pair of belts a sanden rotary A/C compressor it will be pumping R22 and provide both refrigeration via
coldplates/holdover plates, and with switch valving also it will become a heat pump. the heat pump will drive a 1000 gallon
thermal battery (volume of which will vary depending on seasonal demands) with both heat for winter space heating and cold
for summer cooling

the cooling system will also be using a flatplate exchanger to scavenge heat for domestic hot water production

the exhaust system has a heat exchanger of my own design that is right at 75% efficient at full engine loading, i have not tested the
exchangers efficiency at other engine loading because i don't plan on running the engine at anything other than full rated output.
it will drop the exhaust temp from ~640F to 225F on exit, this is as far of a drop as i want as i want the exit temp to be above the boiling point of water so that the exhaust when up to temp stays clean at the crossover region in the heat exchanger.
further scavenging of the waste heat will be done with a cast iron radiator to either space heat the engine room during winter or
be directed to domestic water heating if the room is warm enough.

now obviously i cannot power all these loads at the same time, there will have to be load sharing in place so that the engine can power
any number of combinations of the various driven components at various loading. the only way to effectively manage that is with a microcontroller, and it need not be horribly complex. it however can get complex when it comes to coding if you want to get buy with 10 dollars in chips, but gets dramatically easier when you involve multiple processors.

the control scheme is setup one the master/slave architecture, allowing multiprocessors to work in parallel doing a few little jobs continously and doing them well. i figure on one master and up to as many as 8 slaves

the master just sits back and monitors everything from all loads in the house, the battery bank voltage, windspeeds at the windgen, the time of day and amount of sun on the solar panels, and determines how best to serve the loads demands at the time. obviously we don't start the engine just to service the refrigerator needing to run a chilling cycle if the batteries are up and the wind is blowing or the panels are in full sun. basically you set up a priority table and a supply table and then put together a truth table and code it in.
and of course the whole system can be set to manual with the flip of a switch.
setup properly i can load the washer and walk away knowing that the system will run the load when it is most advantageous to do so.
if i don't need hot water for a shower now, don't start the washer, but rather start it at 5am so that by 6am i have a tank of hot water ready for my morning shower and my batteries topped off if need be, the fridge driven back down etc.

one of the slaves will be the trigen controller, it will when told to initiate startup by the master,
energize the glowplug for a predetermined length of time based on ambient temp and coolant temp
energize the fuel rack shutdown solenoid so the rack goes to idle position
hits the starter relay, for up to 3 attemps to start, and if fail to start, set a warning lamp
allow a timed warmup period,
bring up to 1800rpm
close st head contactor to provide power to any heavy loads such as well pumps, electric heaters, etc
determine how much load is on the st head
activate the controller for the 48volt charge alternator
determine the loading of both units
activate the A/C compressor and give it priority over the 48volt charging if the refrigerator sends a signal that it
needs a pump down.
etc. etc

then when the master determines that there is no longer a need or a load to service efficiently now, deenergize
all contactors and relays to drop all driven components, reduce speed to idle for 2 minutes
and before shutdown check back once again with the master to see if some new urgent need has to be serviced
if yes then set to 1800rpm and service the need, if no
then release the fuel rack solenoid and let her shutdown.

got a slave for the hvac system, etc

all this can be done with a single microcontroller and some good coding, for very little expense, or alternatively it can be done
with some rather simple or crude coding using a couple hundred dollars worth of microcontrollers. you pick your poison here.

now an explanation of efficiencies
i have argued this point till i am blue in the face, we cannot get caught up in any single component efficiency to the exclusion of
how the overall efficiency is affected. it is my belief that the total system efficiency is where the rubber meets the road and all else
is just hype.

in the beginning when researching this setup i too was concerned with the multiple layers of conversions and the hits to overall efficiency you end up with. i knew that batteries were going to be a fact of life so i had to figure out how best to incorporate them and do so in a total system approach to efficiency.

the most obvious was the use of an inverter/charger fed by the st head to charge the batteries, ok fine lets take a look how this typically is done.

your st head is 80-85% efficient depending on who you wanna believe, but for an arguement lets use 85%
if you then feed a really good power factor corrected, electronic, regulated super inverter/charger the efficiency of which is ~90% if we believe them but,,, that is peak efficiency and not across the charging scale,, but we will accept the 90% for discussion
we then charge our batteries fully every time the engine runs, this is good for the batteries, makes them last longer, because we aren't
cycling them very deep,,, etc.  the overall effect is this scheme works out to about 85% efficiency of the batteries under this regime.
so we have 85 x 90 x 85 = 65% overall efficiency and we have to turn the alternator at 1800 rpm all the time, whether we are supplying 50 watts or 5000 the alternator still mandates an engine speed of 1800 if we are to direct drive, the point being we cannot slow the engine down to provide for low loading.

ok, now here  is my system for comparison

instead of the st head providing power to an inverter charger we replace both with a specially prepared and implimented 110-555jho
which i can prove to match the st head in fuel consumption running the engine at the same speed as when driving the st head
and do so kwatt to kwatt. so the alternator is 85% efficient, and now we go directly to the batteries, but instead of the typical charge regime we will be using the 50/80 regime where the batteries can take huge amounts of power relatively speaking and do so without gassing, gassing is caused by the splitting of water into hydrogen and oxygen of course and this requires power thus the 85% efficiency
of the prior method, however
the 50/80 method does not need the additional power to split water into the two elements therefore the efficiency is closer to 95%
so 85x 95 = 80.75% overall efficiency which is a gain from 65 to 80.75% which works out to be a 24.2% gain in efficiency.

oh yes, lets don't forget something quite important here, this can also be done at any engine speed, so why continue to run at
a speed that the st head needs if we don't have to? obviously we don't have to and we won't
reducing the speed from 1800 to 1300rpm results in a 5% reduction in fuel consumption

it doesn't take long to figure out 24.2% here and 5% there starts to add up into some serious savings in fuel consumption

these numbers come from actual testing that i have done in my shop over the last 8 months or so, and are more than accurate enough
to make my point a valid one.

now the batteries will need to be topped off once every week to ten days, and that could be done using either wind or solar
or for that matter the engine drive system running at low speed for as long as it takes to top up the batteries and get them back
into condition for the next week,  interestingly this weekly (which i chose as convenient) works out to a time when we can do a wash day
that is a day when battery charging rates are greatly diminished but take a long time, so we have the st head to cover all normal loads
and do the weekly wash day, when we not only need the power but can make best use out of all that hot water, and it is also a day
when we are at home typically so space heating is always nice in winter, and air conditioning nice in summer on that day as well.

more later...  i will continue with an edit to this post tomorrow

continueing onward

there is a question as to what the 110-555jho is all about
it is an alternator that is typically used on hd trucks, some mid size and various other types of equipment
it was originally a motorola design going back some 30 odd years, so it has been around the block a time or two

leece neville ended up buying the design and developed it further and marketed it as the loadhandler series
with typical amperages of 130 and 140amps

sometime in the last couple of years or so, prestolite bought or merged with leece neville and in doing so
they got the alternator and now call it the 110-555jho, it now is rated at 160amps at 14 volts at 80F
and about 130-140 hot. it is made to run in hostile and hot underhood temps of up to 225F so it can take some
series abuse and live to fight tomorrow.
finer details
it is available in the j180 swivel mount that fits damn near everything on the planet that uses cat, cummins, detroit, mack, navistar, mercedes, volvo
you name it and it also come in the new applications that use the pad mounts.
it is a 16 pole unit, wound and connected as 3phase delta, it also has both front and rear ample sized ball brgs instead of a single front ball brg
and a rear needle or dinky joke of a ball brg like the ford/gm smaller alternators use.
the fan is directional, and both rotations are available as are the older straight cut fans that were used up thru the 130-140amp units.
the regulator is a piggy back affair that forms a brush cover as well, it seals out the dust and dirt and also keeps down sparking issues that
might ignite an explosive atmosphere, certainly better than open brush designs typical of delco and others.
the brushes are mounted in a brush holder that is attached with two screws under the regulator, it has long life extended brushes, and sells
for about 10 bucks and change, so whe you are due for brushes you get a complete assy and 5 min later it is installed and you are back in business again.
that is if the alternator is mounted so that you can access the regulator mounting screws and brush holder screws which should never be a problem if
some forethought is used in layout and fabrication.

they sell for about a buck an amp, 160 -175 dollars new, no core charge with fan and no pulley, you choice of pulley can be used and they are common
off the shelf parts, as the shaft is made for 7/8" industry standard pulleys.
hardly anyone rebuilds these units because the new ones sell so cheap, when the fail it usually is due to short brushes, sometime a failed regulator
or a bad diode, all the parts are relatively cheap and easy to get. if you ask around you can get failed units from truck shops for a 6pack of their favorite beer on friday afternoon, if they don't have any just tell them you will come back weekly with beer,,, you will have more to work with than you can haul off from a large shop in a month or two, especially in the wintertime.

they will produce 24 or 48volts nominal at 28.8 and 57.6vdc reliably, but you got to know what is needed to modify one to do that. and you "must" use
a controller of some sort, forget the "hey i can use a reostat to control the field" it ain't gonna happen reliably and you won't get the efficiency the unit is
able to deliver... you will have to get a balmar max charge controller to manage the field and there are a few other minor changes..
what you will not be doing is rewinding the stator,turning it at speeds in excess of design limitations (actually only about 75% of max continous rpm rating) or driving the field at some obscene levels, the field will be driven to oem spec's and no more so longevity is not threatened.

thats all i am prepared to say at this time on this subject, to get the results i have attained came at a significant cost in dollars and time researching, and some dumb luck.

what is attainable is a unit that will produce 28.8 volts dc charging at 100amps continously, and  as high as 130amps for short durations
of approx 15 minutes. that is a bunch of power from a unit made to charge at 130-140 amps at 14.4volts hot. my testing has fallen a bit short of
expectations for max output when operated at 57.6vdc so i have switched over to an alternator that is perhaps almost as common as the 555.

it is rated at 175amps 14volts and is a 12 pole unit, with the modifications i can achieve 57.6vdc at 75amps continous operation, thermally stable
that works out to ~4.3 kwatts and its efficiency is neck and neck with both the st head and the 555 (producing 24vdc) and their appears to be sufficient
head space to clear the 5 kwatt hurdle without thermal issues and still maintain peak efficiency.

this should pretty well cover the alternator section of the project

more to come later...




bob g

[compig]

God Lord !!  This is verging on a religious epic !!!

[AdeV73]

Interesting stuff....

I've been thinking along similar lines to Bob (albeit with a Lister rather than a Changfa). i.e. fully computerised, fully automatic, with manual over-rides where applicable.

One of the interesting aspects of a system like this; unless you're prepared to make 240vac (120vac in the colonies , I guess) all the time, you cannot use the built-in timers of modern appliances! So, if you want that washing machine to come on at 5am, you either have to supply it with AC all day & night (not efficient), or you have to get an old machine with a mechanical device controlling the wash cycle (so you just power it up when you want); the irony of that being.... the machine (being older) is probably less efficient than the modern computer-controlled device. Dilemma!

In fact, let's take a look at another aspect of washing machines (similar arguments apply to dishwashers). They're complete buggers from a co/trigen setup, because they need hot water almost from the get-go. A cogen diesel engine will be generating loads of electricity right from cold, but it's going to take awhile before the hot water is ready.... so do you use some of that electricity to heat the water for the washing machine; or do you find something else for it to do while the water's warming up in the heat-x, then run the wash cycle once you've got ~40 degree C water. Or.... do you just figure it's not worth the aggro, 'cos the washing machine's only likely to be running for a few hours/week...


And another thing... batteries. The more I read about batteries, the more I hate them. They're expensive to buy, finnickety buggers to maintain, have a limited lifespan, use serious chemicals (lead & sulphuric acid in particular), and if just one goes south you lose your whole battery bank until its replaced. I've not done the maths to determine how many amp-hours storage I'd actually need, but lets say I wanted 330AH @ 48v - using the first website I came across, that will cost me over £2,500 in batteries alone. And I'll have to replace them every 5-10 years, so £250-£500/year in batteries.

So, what can one use instead of batteries? Unfortunately, unless you happen to live on a big lump of land, your choices are rather limited. As I'm hoping to buy a big plot of land; which, hopefully, will be quite hilly, I'm keen to explore the idea of stored hydro. Essentially, build a very big tank at the top of a hill, use my Lister to fill it full of water, and have a turbine at the bottom of the hill to generate the electricity. I can use the same head of water to provide domestic water without relying on standard water pumps.

The nice things about this system are:
 - I can run the engine at it's most efficient loading whenever necessary, without having to worry about overcharging, undercharging, or even close-tolerance governing
 - The system is very low-maintenance, the only wearing parts should be the various bearings.
 - Easy to automate with low/high level switches on the reservoir controlling engine on/off periods - but with plenty of leeway to allow for timed hot water too.

The downsides:
 - High capital cost (especially the reservoir; unless a suitably sized tank can be made/bought cheaply)
 - Risk of broken pipes/winter freezing (not in Portugal though  )

Hmmm.... time to go look for cheap tanks I think

[billswan]

Mobil Bob

Could you give me and the group a little more info on the "110-555jho prestolite alternators" you speak so highly of?

I have checked ebay and I see there are some similar I think?

Looks like a heavy truck Alternator.

Is the 110-555 a part number?

 A model number ?

 a prestolite number?

 How does  Lease neville (SP?) fit in, Is it a parent or a subsideray of prestolite or other?

What does the suffex jho after 110-555 mean?
 
Thanks 

Billswan

[oliver90owner]

My view is: if you can make it, you can fix it.  If you can't make it you probably can't fix it either!  Join the throw away society.

Doesn't hold for everything but it is relevant if complex electronics and me are mixed together!

Regards, RAB

[SteveU.]

Billswan
The suffix jho after the old part number 110-555 means "SAE spec J180 mounting configuration" ( a double foot 4" internally spaced hinge mounting using 1/2" bolts.) The HO stands for High Output.
Without a bit of industrial history that this started as a 8HA series Motorola part number and design that was  divested and sold to the Prestolite Co., who later merged with competitor Leece Neville these became the most common (copied and licensed produced in Mexico and China) heavy duty truck alternator in the 90's in the US, Canada and Mexico.
This is a good solid long lifed brush type unit, easy to field repair with lots of design flexibility possibilities: can be externally regulated, accessible AC phase taps, ect.
The cheapest current new production DC watts you can buy. A very safe choice. ANY auto electric shop can work on and supply parts for these.
Unlike old obscure truck, industrial units like my Electrodynes, Niehoffs, Delco 30, 40& 50 DN's, SI's, let alone the virtually one off ex-military and old Leece Nevile emergency vehicle units.
Regards
SteveU.

[mobile_bob]

two of the most fascinating alternator designs of all time in my books
are the electodyne and the delco 30dn
the electrodyne for its brushless, built to take a nuclear hit, work forever construction
and its rather unusual colapsing field induction method sets this bad boy ahead of all the rest in my opinion,but
relatively rare around here and bloody expensive.

the delco 30dn, is for all purposes the 3 phase rectified equivalent of the st head
except it is superior to an st in almost everyway as far as constuction goes, but lacking size sufficient
to be of any real use today, i did rewind one for 120vac 60hz which the 30 dn can do at 1800 because of its
4 lobe rotor and nice clean sine wave due to its skewed stator, they were nice units about 40 plus years ago.

lb for lb, amp for amp, dollar for dollar the 555 is hard to beat in my books, i got my hands on one of the old motorola's
back in the late 70's, but could not keep it because of its heavy core charge at that time,, but the design damn sure got my
attention and when leece neville ended up with the rights to it and then prestolite, i was very excited about the rerelease as the load handler.

before that thing came out i was a die hard delco fanatic, pffft, you couldn't give me a delco today
save for maybe another 30 dn or certainly an aircooled belt driven 50dn (always wanted one of those)

i remember 25 years ago an 80amp delco 1100080 alternator went for 275 dollars rebuilt and you better have a core to
turn in, the core was about another 250bucks iirc, and to buy a new one?? ya right they were so bloody proud of those things
that i don't remember every installing a new delco 80 amp alternator, they must have been over 5-600bucks way back then.

so yes, when the 555 alterator first came out, i was all over those puppies and have installed them exclusively in every appication
where i can make them fit, ditching the delco's, leece neville jb series, ford blue backs, bosch or any other creature that takes
a j180 mount.

the thing that really surprises me is why more folks haven't discovered these units and still scour the junk yards looking for old
ford, gm or dodge alternators, that couldn't keep up with a 555 if you cooled them in liquid nitrogen.

anyway, back to the topic at hand

compig:

your comment about this being a religion?
well not quite, certainly a lot of other things a guy could do that would be less productive with his spare change and time.
for me it is based on a lifetime of working on this stuff and never being in a position to test and question
much less get good answers to my questions.  a good friend of mine whom will remain annonomous (man my spelling is crap)
told me not long ago
"bob, for god sakes quit researching and theorizing and get out in the shop and built it" "then do your testing and see what you come up
with"

well i did

an i found that for every question i got an answer for 10 more questions popped up, and the race was on!
along the way one learns a lot about stuff he never thought much about before, such as microcontrollers.
and sometimes when you set out to really do serious research into an area where most folks fear to tread, you
get lucky and your theories work out to be reality, and sometimes you get really lucky and stumble into some
really useful stuff.

my only wish is that there were more folks out there really getting serious about how far they can push the envelope
beit in max power, alternate fuels, efficiencies, and most of all retesting long held beliefs to see if they still hold water
using the stuff we have today to work with.

case in point, "bob you don't wanna work with automotive alternator's, they are only about 50% efficient"
well maybe that was the case in 1965 or 75 or even 85, 95 or now, but
how do we know if we don't run the tests ourselves, and do our own alterations, modifications and see if maybe
alternators have changed a bit since the came out in widespread use in the early 60's? perhaps it is the methods that
were used to alter or modify that were the problem? who knows without revisiting the issue.

so yes call me crazy, i could care the less, but
i have found 25 percentage points in gained efficiency, have also found 50 to 100 percent gain in output power as well
and to be honest most of it was there all along, just not many folks were looking and the oem's until the last 10 years
have had no motivation to go looking either,,, you bet they have been though as we move to the new 42 volt standard.

i would just like to see more serious testing, more interest in doing more than buying an engine coming here and asking the same
old questions about sand, non rotating lifters, leaking fuel lines complete with another fifty 640x480 32bit glossy pictures of the listeroids
bowels... it gets a bit boreing at least for me.

but i am not bitching about that, fine with me, keep bringing the pictures of indian real estate, maybe one day someone will
find a 2 carat diamond running around in the basement
i can be tolerant, all i ask in return

is a little tolerance for those of us that want to stretch the boundaries a bit, and maybe more tolerance for those that seem to be
stretching the boundaries all over the place.  if we build it we oughta be able to discuss it here? right?

anyways i am ready to read more about those that are either thinking of, or are building co or trigenerators, control systems and other
stuff.

bob g

[billswan]

Thanks to steveU. and Mobil bob

For the alternator lessons

Billswan

[SteveU.]

Hi All
For anyone interested the Prestolite/Leece Neville 110-555JHO alternator can be viewed here:
http://www.prestolite.com/literature/alts/PP1131_110-555.pdf
Shows the J180 mounting specs. Has a nice Output/RPM performance graphed.
These are on eBay used and new all of the time.

MobileBob the performance curve shows the real story, eh? 160 amps at 4000RPM and it will do that all day without overheating. 20,000 hour rated bearings.
I too get asked and try to explain to people why this proven performance will always beat a small frame light weight unit that if you do manage to cram enough PM's in it (or jam enough field current into it like Lestec and Phoenix Gold did) and spin it fast enough to kick out this same wattage you WILL NOW HAVE TO spin it 14-16,000 RPM to suck enough air through it to keep it from melting down. Think of the Noise!
Bearings are only going to last ~ 500 hours! I know, I saw this as a Lestec/Phoenix Gold dealer in the 80's.
It is hard to convince people that nothing beats the hugh hunk of properly formed iron mass for magnetism and thermal heat sinking in a large framed unit. You know this and Doug knows this and a few others.
I think the fascination is with the new must be better. Sex sells. Sells a lot of bright, shiny new made in India 19", 20" and 21" wheels and tires onto PU's and SUV's that Will Not give you better milage, Will Not last as long, are hard to balance, Will cost More to service and replace. Other than pretty their only value is to successfully transfer money from your pocket into the hand of the sellers.
Same with these small framed automotive PM alternator conversions.
BTW I still owe you an old Electrodyne core for your help in the past.
Regards
SteveU.

[mobile_bob]

SteveU:

thats the part that pisses me off to no end about folks like hydrogen appliance and their wild ass claims
115k hour brgs?  15k rpm? blah blah blah

it seems pretty clear to me their ultimate goal is not to build a useful product but rather optimize their profits
buy using the cheapest most common core to start with a then hype it so they can pry dollars out of folks
that want to believe.

that is just wrong on so many levels

i am so tempted to startup a small company to produce and market optimized alternators for folks that are looking
for something that is nothing but a promise from hydrogen appliance. the only possible place that their pm alternators
might outproduce one of mine is on a windgen where the windspeed is so low that the ouput is sub 2-300 watts
anything over that and i can pass them up in every aspect from output>efficiency>longevity> and at less cost

when it comes to hydro and engine driven applications  of more than the same output, which most folks that are doing the
engine driven certainly are, there is no contest, i would put mine up against any of these commercial modified pm auto alternators.

and it wouldn't even be close!

man i would like to get into a heads up competition with those guys!

if there is a lesson here, that is, don't believe advertizing claims from some of these companies. they tell you just enough fact to make it plausible but when you get into the guts of the thing it just doesn't hold up.

bob g

[apogee_man]

I posted regarding Prestolite's new Multipower, but I decided that it really belonged in the alternator thread so I moved it.  I do wish they offered a 48 vdc version though...  Check it out over here:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4802.new#new

On topic, I am still working out the best direction for me.  I need to go through my engines first and hopefully by then I'll have zero'd in a direction. 

I've already posted about directions I'm considering here:

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4798.msg58224#msg58224

A/C is not something that I'm concerned with at this time.  If I lived in a hot climate, maybe, but I have no plans for it at this time.

Waste heat collection will be a definite and it will either be piped into a radiant floor system, cast iron radiator or possibly used for hot water in the house (haven't decided yet).  To me, it's just a freebie that is leftover from the primary use of the fuel.  Any real heating will be done with the fuel directly, as it would be far more efficient use of the fuel imho.

My inclination is similar to Bob's in that I see no reason to run an ST head then step it down to charge batteries.  I am leaning toward a battery bank and a decent inverter setup so, a) the genset doesn't need to run all of the time, and b) I don't have to be concerned about flicker, clean power etc...  Plus it opens up the door for easy additions of hydro, wind and solar...

That having been said, the twin will likely have either an ST or PMG head for heavier loads, and for backup just in case the big EMP hits....  Of course, I'll only be able to run it while wearing my tin hat...

Steve 

[Grael]

Can someone give us a bit of a run down on how to go about the electronics that were mentioned? I'm intrigued.

[mobile_bob]

which electronics are you enquireing about?

the alternators?

the microcontrollers?

other?

bob g