Author Topic: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?  (Read 16715 times)

Doug

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2009, 06:03:50 PM »
I Like Bob's Idea:

But if its too complicated for some to build then maybe its not wise to attempt unless you are realy comfortable working on this kind of thing.

I would look at adding solar wind and or hydro to the mix. But I like to tinker and I have the patients to build and tune this sort of thing. I have even considered this sort of thing for the camp.

I am getting increasingly mistrustful of inverters and electronic controlers however. In an off grid home I would probably stick with a small inverter for the must have AC loads and convert as much as practical to DC ( probably 90VDC ). The biggest hold back for me in this situtation would be the need to generate more baseload from my wind hydro and solar than I realy need so I can waste power rather than try and be efficient. A few watts burned off in a dump load would be far cheaper than a few watts generated by diesel.

Now could I get the wife to except a DC dish washer? As long as she never saw me strip and rewire it I might get away with that.

A wood burning drier ( Hey love throw another stick on the clothes? ) = dead man lol.

I can do just about anything like this if I put my mind too it.
You can do anything like this or any one of a number of things IF you put your mind too it.
Aunty will not put her mind too it. Better to buy her a Honda and an automatic transfer switch.

There realy is no limit to far you can go to build a sytem for combined power sources and heat. Boy would I love to build a home near some runnig water on a lot large enough to cut say 10 sustianable cords of wood from a year. I could retreat into my own little world there and only venture out for groceries and my day job. I guess I am getting wierd the older I get
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 06:09:40 PM by Doug »
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mkdutchman

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2009, 06:14:32 PM »
Quote
I guess I am getting wierd the older I get

You're losing all your socialist tendencies too!!!  LOL there's still hope for you ;D  ;D

sorry, I just couldn't resist it  :( :) ::)

roverjohn

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2009, 06:28:57 PM »
Doug, The OP seems to be looking to build a genny for use during hurricane season not to try to create some sort of hybrid utility. And, Bob makes no mention of adding wind or solar. Without them I'll assume that he intended for the 13hp to be the primary mover. If that is the case there is no point in any 'idling' at all as a large enough battery bank would allow the engine to start and stop based on battery voltage only as it is just an as needed charger at that point. Still, the conversions losses are still absurd. With a gen head you convert mechanical rotation directly to AC power which you then use. His idea converts mechanical to AC to DC to electrochemical reaction to another electrochemical reaction to AC which you then use. There are losses every step of the way which he hopes to make up for by saving some diesel while the motor isn't seeing much load while forgetting about all the maintainence and losses that occur while the system is not running.

Wouldn't it be way simpler to spend the money you would have spent on all the complications instead on a bunch of diesel fuel and a tank to store it in?

Doug

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2009, 09:33:44 PM »
Well Rover that depends on you.

I can get my hands on all kinds of things and I can rework all kinds of things.



Hey Dutchman I'm on strike big strike of 09, brothers and sisters time to close ranks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcXNXKtu8z4

No matter what political stripes you are we should all rise up in a general strike and send a very very very clear message to the fools who gave us a collective kick in swinging parts and make it known we want a fair shake again. No more banking silliness crazy gov spending tax shelters for people with too much money and no consience.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 09:43:20 PM by Doug »
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panaceabeachbum

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2009, 09:41:02 PM »
actualy I already have the plc and was writting the ladder( programming) for full engine management  and BOB was pointing out that since I am going to the trouble to use a computer control (plc) then why not also use it to monitor batts and inverters so the engine could run at idle when the load is low and only bring the engine rpm up when the batts need to be topped off .     Yes its alot more involved and costly than what i need as far as a back up gen for hurricane season , but I like the input .  The plc to monitor a sytem as described is only about $100 + any sensors and solenoids that might be needed .

To my way of thinking thats what these forums are for, to share ideas on diff ways of doing things .  Keep em coming, even if I dont go as far as invertors or batt banks I like the mental work out  and maybe someone else can gain from the discussion.  

Since I have been contemplating the thought of solar panels and inverters anyway this may be the start of the system . I have 4 other gen sets , two of which are wifey friendly (elec start) so even if this one takes longer or is overly complicated its not the end of the world.

This approach is def on the opposite end of the spectrum from the lister spinning a gen , but its not a new Idea , my dad has an old light plant, stover I think, that runs a gen to keep a bank of glass batteries topped off . It cuts back to idle and only spins the engine up when the voltage drops below a certain point . The idea is to save fuel and wear on engine when demand is low . The stover dates back to 1923 (possibly earlier) so the idea is not new . We are just looking at a more modern approach of system management by using the PLC and monitoring more variables .

jzeeff

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2009, 09:44:35 PM »
Practicality and cost effectiveness are always factors, but someone needs to explore the limits of what can be done.    I'm going the inverter route because I want perfect power (no frequency or voltage variations) and by using batteries for the starting loads, the generator can be quite small.    True, it will be too complex for the average user.






panaceabeachbum

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2009, 09:53:10 PM »
yes that high starting load is whats grabbed my intrest also , that and the fact that the batts can be maintaned with solar panels and the engine used as the rainy day back up .
  Other than my exp with the hinky little invertors sold at auto stores I know nothing about invertors . Is it possible to use multiple 3kw units wired to a common output or is there an issue with phase cancelling or some other issue?

mobile_bob

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2009, 11:27:33 PM »
let me take a stab at explaining what this crackpot mobile_bob has in mind,,, hey
wait a minute i am that crackpot!

the system that i outlined is just that an "outline"
it is based on several hundred hours of testing in my garage to determine exactly what the specific fuel consumption
of a specific diesel genset is under various loads, conditions, rpms, various alternators, both AC and DC generation
various battery technologies, various battery voltages and various inverters, and various fuels.

my conclusion is based on testing data, and not based on "feelings" "theory" "manufactures claims" "fokelore"
"instinct" "anecdotal evidence" or anything other than what can actually be measured in the real world using quality
instrumentation, using scientific method and, done in such a manner that it could be duplicated by somebody else on
the other side of the planet.

now with the preface out of the way :)

what sense does it make to buy a 12/1 or 12/2 to provide for intermittent loads and then have to run it the vast majority of the
time at part loading?  a typical 12hp engine will burn 2.5 to 3 times the fuel per kwatt hr to cover a 1 killawatt load, than it will
per kwatt/hr to cover a 6-7 kwatt load.

so if you build a genset that is going to run a significant amount of time, and will be installed in a typical house it will end up
burning far more fuel lopeing along at part load most of its life, just so you have enough hp in reserve to cover the intermittent
loads such as starting and running a well pump, or running an A/C system (where the compressor cycles off and on)

all i tried to illustrate was a method of covering those heavy intermittent loads with a unit that was sized properly to cover the loads
that are typical of 90% of the day.

now on the surface this system might seem overly complicated, but the reality need not be

for instance

take a small diesel engine like a 6hp r175 changfa (cheap and reliable)  maybe 500bucks

attach a 110-555jho alternator  about 175 bucks

put in a set of trojan/wally  world t105 batteries for 12volts and 440amp/hr  maybe 400 dollars?

get ahold of powersolutions, last i heard he had some 3kva inverters for 200 dollars

put together a simple controller, based on a bs2, pic or your fancy
or have a kid put one together for you                                    maybe 100bucks

so for 1375 dollars you got a basic system that will do most of what i am talking about
and the efficiency will be just a bit better than just running the engine to directly power the loads
because as you so aptly noted the conversion steps added take away from efficiency, but

what i didn't tell you was the same alternator can be modified and applied properly to produce
24 or 48 volts and do so at an efficiency that meets and in some cases exceeds the efficiency of an ST head
now the system exceeds the efficiency of a standard 6/1  driving an st head on a continuous basis. or drive two inverters
and exceed the efficiency of a 12/1 or 12/2 and
have a better surge capability and short term overload capacity as well (measured in minutes based on load a battery capacity)


also yes, wind, solar and hydro could easily be plugged into the system to further increase efficiency and usefulness.

oh and lest i forget,, you got nice and stable flicker free 60hz, stable 120volts and depending on inverter a cleaner
sine wave than the utility and certainly better than any generator can deliver.

what i have outlined is nothing new, it is not even my idea, although i wish it were and i had the idea patented.

now then lets go a bit further on pricing

if a guy is patient and keeps an eye out, there is alot of stuff out there that comes up from time to time

i just finished collecting the final bits of an exeltech mx series redundant inverter system, with 10kwatts of capacity
and a 3 second rating of 22kwatts (for starting that tough well pump, etc), the set retails for right at 13 grand as configured
and i got it surplus for just over a grand with shipping.

if you develop good relationships with suppliers you can get really good deals on engine's, i know because i just passed on
a good deal to a fellow board member on a 25/2 listeroid a few months back, he got it for about half the going rate for one.

same goes for alternators, i picked up two 320amp leece neville alternators off of ebay a year or so back
for 300 each, they retail for over 2200 each

the 110-555jho alternator i referenced are on sale at some truck dealer every month for about 160bucks new out the door
no core price, for a 160amp unit that is about as tough an alternator as ever has been built and lightyears ahead of any car
alternator bar none.

now in closing,
does this make sense for everyone?  certainly not!
i wouldnt recommend this to someone that only needs backup power once every year or three for a windstorm outage
of a few hours or days.

does it make sense for an offgrid application? yes definitely!
i have all the test data to prove that there is simply no way running any engine, or any genset, whether diy or one from the eom
genset manufactures that you will meet or exceed the efficiencies available with such a system as i outlined.

honda , yamaha and others came part way to where this system is with their inverter generators, tie in a battery bank and they
would be there  if not for being optimized to run without batteries.

perhaps this is too complicated for some folks?  perhaps it is not in keeping with the KISS principle?

bear in mind that today's cars are loaded with computer controls and they do a pretty good job, reliably and efficiently
given the epa constraints they operate under and...
they are complicated as hell, anything but KISS, and no way would i want to sit down and try to explain to you or anyone
how each system works and why it is needed,,,

although if pressed to do so i could!

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mobile_bob

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2009, 11:43:01 PM »
i would like to add a wee bit more if i could

it is a proven fact that the engine will run most efficiently at full load, and
the heats from both the coolant system and particularly the exhaust are of much higher
quality at full load.

the exhaust will be running at well over twice the temp at full load of what it would be at
low load, this amounts to about a 300 degree difference, and it will be burning cleaner

should one decide to capture the waste heat (and there is much interest in this group to do so)
you want the hottest and cleanest available heat to harvest, you get better transfer rates and less
gunk/carbon/coking of the exchanger if you are using a tube/tube or flatplate unit.

some folks will turn up their noses at cogen, who needs it?

some folks may never, but most folks would like to take a hot shower or bath after a few days of no power
after a storm, at which time cogen makes sense and trigeneration makes a lot of sense if you live in florida
after a hurricane.

to the offgrid guy he needs no convincing, he knows the value of efficiency, the value of refrigeration, heating and cooling
all to well.

so i figure if you are going to do it, why not do it right in the first place, or at least not paint yourself into a corner where you cannot
easily add those options later when the wife starts to raise hell about takeing cold showers and sweating her ass off in 100 degree 95% humidity post hurricane afternoons.

so maybe this explains the value of such a system, if you still don't see the value of don't understand
you likely never will

and thats ok too

:)

bob g
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(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

panaceabeachbum

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2009, 12:38:00 AM »
that was a long read , very informative

I think the skinny of it is why have the engine making max power and consuming large qty of fuel all the time when you can have it idle quite a bit of the time and just produce max power for short periods when the batteries need to be brought up to full charge . An on demand system

Pros: smooth power output, high surge to start large loads, reduced engine wear, noise and fuel consumption

cons: more complicated , more expensive


I wondered how long till you mentioned the changfa  ;)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 01:05:20 AM by panaceabeachbum »

panaceabeachbum

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2009, 12:49:37 AM »


Wouldn't it be way simpler to spend the money you would have spent on all the complications instead on a bunch of diesel fuel and a tank to store it in?


In my application yes it would, we are just exploring other options and trains of thought.
I do need to find a larger tank, currently hoarding almost 2k gal in 55 gal drums

mobile_bob

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2009, 03:45:25 AM »
at the current price of diesel, probably yes
but if it should go for over 5 bucks again, hmmm my bet is there will be much more interest in what i am talking about.

if you save a gallon a day at 5 bucks a gallon and live off grid that is 150 per month or 1800 dollars a year in additional fuel
just because i am bull headed and am bound and tied at the him to the KISS principle.

and i know i can save a gallon per day with such a system over just simply buying a bigger tank and running 8-16 hrs per day
at low loading.

hey don't think i fell off the tater truck yesterday and just came up with some wild idea's or bought into some horseshit claims made
by some oem that makes a similar system,

this is the culmination of over 10 years of research and study to come to a set of hypothesis's (or is that hypothesi') :)
and then as stated  a few hundred more ours of actual research and testing to see if the theory holds water.

believe me i would rather it was more efficient as well as simpler just to throw together a simple crankup genset and put in a few
thousand gallons of fuel and live on with my life.

probably would have been 40 years ago when offroad diesel was 11 cents a gallon, or would be if i had a really nice hydro resource
or if i put up 5kwatts of solarpanel, or a pair of 16ft windgenerators or if china comes out with a residential nuke reactor i can put in my back yard... :)  but that is just not the reality i live in.

i gotta burn diesel or equivalent in an engine a certain amount of time everyday, and i figure that the price will go up substantially over the
remaining years of my life,, i might be wrong, it might reverse course,, but i doubt it. if it does i can look at my machine and call it an expensive insurance policy?

anyway at this point in time, the system i outlined is the only system i know of that can compete with the grid in cost per kwatt/hr
factoring in all surcharges from the power company and factoring all other recoverable and useable energy i can scavenge off the engine
such as the waste heats.

btw, if anyone can demonstrate to me that their engine produces more power on less fuel at low load than it does at full rated load, i would like to hear about it. actually i will do better than that, you prove your numbers and procedures so that another independant guy can duplicate your results and i will pay you 50 bucks for the knowlege on how you did it. on caveat,,, it must be able to do this on a continuous basis over the course of a day 8 hours minimum.

so there you have it, my reasoning as twisted as it may sound.

as for KISS, it has its place, it also can be abused to ones own discomfort
great grandpa and grandma lived the KISS principle, they drove a model T, lived with a pot belly stove
and had an outhouse. the epitome of KISS
they also froze their asses off in the winter, fought with the model T winter and summer, and making a trip
to the outhouse in the middle of a subzero night was hardly an experience most of us have ever done
much less want to replicate.

we are not talking rocket science here, not sending a man to the moon, just using established and mature technology
where it clearly can produce valid results and saves money would seem prudent to most folks i would think?

i am sure there was a time when a recoil starter was thought of as high tech!  jeesh the way some of your guys go on
about using technology maybe i should call foul for your use of an electric starter? glow plugs? serpentine belt instead of rope drive
or flat leather? bolts instead of hot riveted frames?

so where do we draw the line? and who decides the criteria? i sure hope it isn't some old ancient purest fart, you guys will be taking off all
the high tech starters, glowplugs, serpbelts etc... after all why do we need a starter when we can just hang an extra crank handle on the wall, along side the spare leather flatbelts, and hotwick rope

:)


bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

oliver90owner

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2009, 09:31:28 AM »
and live off grid that is 150 per month

Bob,

I think, without really following this thread closely, that is where you are really taking your view-point from - off grid?

As soon as one is off-grid, batteries (or some form of energy storage) is the norm. It is then all about reducing fuel usage and not 'grid energy usage'.  You are on your own (no grid back-up or using it as the 'storage' vessel), so to speak, so you have to arrange alternatives. 

Now we are into renewables.......startomatics with a timer, battery power as priority (unless CHP required), PV, wind and water power, or whatever is available, where you live, to keep the state-of-charge levels as high as possible with free energy.

Now, I reckon most of these people would find a 6/1startomatic plenty big enough for most things.

Regards, RAB

mobile_bob

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2009, 10:47:23 AM »
RAB:

yup it was offgrid i am referring to.

and yes most of us would find a startomatic more than adequate for our needs, but
most of us live on this side of the pound and as such could live out our whole lives having
never seen one of the original units save for picture here or in a book.

and i suspect there were those back when they came out that looked at the startomatic as if it were
built by those bent on sending a man to mars and beyond :)

what i refer to is basically no more than a modern version of a startomatic one that in my personal belief
lister would be building today should they still be in operation.

bob g
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(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

jzeeff

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Re: Which gen would you use on the 13 hp cat diesel?
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2009, 05:55:10 PM »
Just to be clear - while every engine is different, engine efficiency (BSFC) is best at high load, but typically not at its maximum output horsepower or rpm.  Closer to 1/2 or 2/3 its max rpm.

So you will get better efficiency by slowing most generators down - but that changes the frequency if you aren't using DC + inverter.

Many modern electronic devices (like some PCs)  will allow you to slow down to 108V/47Hz.  That helps some.





« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 03:36:19 PM by jzeeff »