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Author Topic: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke  (Read 31452 times)

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #15 on: August 06, 2009, 05:13:24 PM »
WIZARD- I ran into the excessive oil scenerio in 82 as a learning mechanic when we had to overhaul used 6v53 detroits with used parts,lol. As our teams started up their engines at different times one of the engines started to run away. the first thing the guys tried to do was force the govenor to shut off the fuel flow,,nope that didnt work and by that time the eng was over 3300 rpm and  slow climbing then they tried to kill the engine with a huge thick phone book to cover the air intake,nope that didnt work ether,lol,sucked that puppy right in and turned it into cinders flying out the exhaust. so common sence dictated that we scram as fast as our little feet could travel. After the bang and clunking we saw parts landing everywhere,lol,pieces of a head ,piston, oil pan etc.found out that at 3475 rpm the valves start to hit the piston but it doesnt mean it will stop the engine from running lol.
We all learned a lot of things that day,lol. out of 8 teams we had 3 run aways also caused by our instructors playing with one of the engines while we had gone home for the night or gone to lunch and then came back and started them up with out rechecking everything,lol.

Since the engines that they wanted us to learn on were destined to go back to a reman engine company the school thought it was a great way for us to learn,lol, it was a learning experience thats for sure,lol.

My 3 cents worth
Derek
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 05:36:54 PM by mactoollover2005 »
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

Wizard

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #16 on: August 06, 2009, 05:42:51 PM »
Derek,  re the runways... here's a video of in this thread I started while ago about RAPP 24.

http://listerengine.com/smf/index.php?topic=4455.0

I have not found any other more runway videos and actually exploding.

Cheers, Wizard

mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2009, 06:21:02 PM »
mobile bob  
               It is apparent that you lived on detroits for awhile while as i as a military mechanic worked on everything we have in our inventory from generators, gas engs, snowmobiles, diesels, etc and it wasnt all the time that we worked on the engines ,most of the time was doing brakes or other things to these vehicles and equipement. None of us is specialized  we just fix everything as it comes to us so i value your experience when you say a inj tip will do this or this fault will cause that problem.

               Now for the skill testing question Bob--- We had a 6-53 come in and the eng was toast caused by overheating.checked the cooling system out and it was in working order ( belt for fan, fan , water pump , thermostat, hoses etc) Pulled the eng  and put it on the eng stand,  Drained the eng oil which ran like water ,ripped off the oil pan and found that the crank  and connecting rods had turned the color of blue/black plus most of the internals had done the same thing. We checked the oil that had been installed the previouse week by the driver who got the oil off of me, so i know it was 15-40 diesel oil and found that the oil had broken down to water viscosity and was black black black like it had been in it for months instead of 5-6 days with maybe 50-60 kms on the fresh oil and new oil filter. The oil wasnt contaminated with water or fuel or anything like that. To this day we still think about that engine and wonder what the heck caused the oil to turn to water viscosity. The oil pump was serviceable but it too had the bluish color to it from the heat of the oil which also peeled most of the eng paint off of it.
               In that case with the eng being toast ,,,we just replaced it with a new eng and the vehicle was gone out the door serviceable in about 3 hours. Normally when we were told to replace a engine or trany,,, from the time we touched the vehicle to finished the road test with the new eng/trany in it my partner and i could have it done in 4.5 hours,lol

Just my 3 cents worth
Derek

              
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2009, 06:40:16 PM »
got a couple issues with the runaway 6v53
all were fitted with blowers, and known as naturally aspirated
and some fitted with turbo's with a suffix of 6v63T or TA if aftercooled

if you put a nice thick phone book over the intake during a runaway, the engine would have had to die
reason being, either the air got cut off or the book got sucked in (but it would have died immediately had that happened)
the blower drive in a 2 stroke detroit cannot handle anything of consequence being sucked through the blower rotors
the clearances are far to tight to allow anything going through.

also a 6v53 can handle well over 4 grand without damage, unless there was a part not installed correctly or not torqued.

as for the oil running out like water? not sure what happened their but strongly suspect fuel dillution via a leaking transfer pump
what happens if some guys not knowing any better will install 1/8" pipe plugs in all the weep holes, and if the seals go bad the
leak has to end up into the crankcase instead of dribbling externally where it can be seen.

also 15/40 diesel oil is incorrect for any detroit 2 stroke, straight weight 30 in very cold weather, 40 in warm weather, and 50 in
tropical or equatorial hotter than hell operation.

i have never seen the internals of a detroit having turned blue, a detroit running under load will rarely every damage a crank due to low oil
before a piston seizure takes place, it will always stick a piston before it ever spins a rod brg,,, generally
if i were to bet my lunch money, it would always be on a siezed piston long before brg damage and failure.

having spent many years, doing nothing buy detroit engine work, day in and day out, i have never seen a detroit runaway result in catastrophic failure, i am sure it is possible, but generally if the engine is sound and assembled properly they can wind to the sky, scare the hell
out of everyone in sight, and still live to run another day. that is if there is someone handy to cut off the air.

btw, all naturally aspirated engines had air doors to cut off the air incase of a runaway situation, but they nixed them on the turbo versions
and opted for breakaway racks that would allow one injector to hang in full throttle but not allow the others to be held in full throttle.

i have seen one 8v71 maxed out at just a touch over 4500rpm, and that it about all the engine can do because of valve float
pretty exciting to say the least,

i have also seen a 12v149TTA with a hung injector, straight pipes pointing to the sky
8" in diameter blowing fire ~6feet above the pipe and what i can only imagine looking like mt vesuvious blowing towering plumes
of black smoke above the flames.

that will make you backside pucker :)

bob g
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mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2009, 12:29:33 AM »
in re to the 6v53 with oil that ran out like water...

i forgot the obvious :)

all those fuel jumper lines, stand pipes and washers, injector fittings and seal washers which are under the valve covers
are all points of internal fuel leakage that all ends up diluting the oil with fuel
it takes a very small leak no time at all to start filling the crankcase and cutting the oil to where it would be very fluid
about the viscocity of water as you stated.

the system runs at ~60psi at full throttle, so it doesn't take much of a leak

btw, those unitized injectors are quite a feat of engineering back in their day
mechanical actuated and able to inject at well over 20k psi
other manufactures didnt reach those pressures until the went with the modern common rail
HUEI systems and the like.

i kinda miss those old detroits, them and the VT903 cummins (it had a sound all its own, v8 903 cu/in short stroke)

bob g
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Doug

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2009, 02:43:49 AM »
Bob you left out the part about that thinned out oil coming out the blower seals and the engine runs away lol.

I found a GM 3 71 ( I think it was 71 series and not a detroit it said GM diesel ) diesel at work Bob with 700 hours being scrapped. They wouldn't let me have it :(

The felt it was time to replace it because it was old and the parts were hard to find. It was on a fire pump that only started during power failures to suply booster presure. Thats 700 lifetime hours in a heated building...
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2009, 04:46:33 AM »
700 hours?  barely broken in!

woulda been a cool engine to have gotten for the taking

from what i am told, overhaul parts are still available, its the other parts that
are hard to get new, still jillions of them around the planet though so
it should be a very long time before the sound of a detroit is nothing but a memory.

the inline series detroit was the most versatile engine ever built, 8 different configurations
4 right hand rotation and 4 left hand rotation
you can flip the block end for end, so the blower can be on either side, the head can be mounted
either direction by swapping the cam and countershaft so you can have the exhaust on either side.
all sorts of variations, quite a versatile piece of engineering in my opinion.
the 16v71 and 16v92's were two v8's doweled and bolted together, another interesting tidbit

they really tried to make that engine a one size fits all solution to any problem that needed a diesel engine.

those were the days :)

i think my absolute favorite detroit in a class 8 truck was the 12v71NA very good power and smooth as a swiss watch
had the opportunity to test drive a 12v71TTA, 575 hp , only truck i ever drove that could light the rear axles at 40mph
when you stomped on the throttle pedal. so smooth, yet very powerful for their day.

come to think of it, there were many interesting engine's back in the 70's, 1693 cat what a frigging monster, KTA cummins was another
at 1150cu/in inline six 4 stroke and the 3408 cats were no slouch either. even allis chalmers made a truck engine in the early 70's for a
time, didn't take long for those who had them to figure out how to turn the power up on those bad boys,, usually the crankshaft would fail at around 600hp or so iirc.

i must be getting old, i don't care much for the new iron, it is changing so quickly anymore that i find it hard to imagine
that there will be guys 30 years from now that will recall any of these engine's in current production, save a very few oddities.

bob g

bob g
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mactoollover2005

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2009, 06:23:06 PM »
Bob- A 8-71 at 4500rpm?? holy crap is all i can say,lol, as for the military diesels ie.. 6v53 lets just say the rebuilds were not top quality nor always serviceable when we received from the company as serviceable. Did a few jobs where we went to start them up after install and ether didnt start or ran like a bag of hammers,found a few missing pistons,lol, one eng didnt have any but it too had passed the quality test at the reman factory. But they all came with a really nice coat of pain on them that i can say,they did a better job on the paint quality than the actual work on the eng.,lol.

12v149TTA, now that must be interesting piece of kit,lol. I had to repair a head with new valves because someone screwed up the govenor adjustment and the rpm read 3475 on the guage after it was shut down,only 3 valves had to be replaced so we just took them off a used eng that was going back to be rebuilt. We could get parts for them but it was easier and faster to swipe them from the dead engines we had sitting around waiting to go out.Remember the name of the game was to get them out and running and not to be perfect, most engines only last 6- 12 months usually because of various reasons, drivers being one of them,lol.and no or low oil being another.

Ass for the phone book i would totally agree with you except for one thing and that is i was there and saw it with my own eyes. Took a few seconds but it chewed and spit the book out in burning cinders. after that we all had inch and a half plywood chicken boards to kill the air intake which doesnt work some times the vacuum can suck the blowers suction side seals in and get air that way.

15/40 oil is what we are ordered to use,no debate about it,lol. and did u know that detroit make various length dipsticks for the same 6v53? they did, our engines had the longer version which made the eng abot 1.5 to 2 quarts overfull and caused the valve cover gaskets to leak all the time and sometime the rear or front main seals. We found this out and took out 2 quarts and miraculousely  the leaks stop for the majority of the engines. of course we had to top all the engines back up 2 quarts when the big bosses came around to inspect the vehicles once a month sometimes once every 2 months then remove the added oil after they were gone,lol.

Just my 3 cents
Derek
Still working on finding a lister gennie.
Derek

Doug

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2009, 09:37:23 PM »
Toyota diesels have dip sticks like that.

I had brought mine in for a service one time and the dipstick was changed for one too short.

On start up it was fine untill I drove down ramp and the oil sucked into the engine caused a brief but very frighteniong runaway. I stalled the engine out on the side of the drift with bumper and dropped the clutch. It had just enough oil to cause trouble but not so much that it would not idle and run normal on flats.
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2009, 03:27:48 AM »
Derek:

don't get me wrong, i am not telling you that you didn't see a 6v53 eat a phone book, just
that it likely was one in a million, and possibly the one witnessed event in the history of all detroit
2 cycle engines.

sure i am skeptical, as would anybody that is really conversant in those engine's

the problem i am having with the story is multifold

the NA engines all had shutdown airdoors on the blower, that cut off the airflow, and had screens
the screens would never allow anything over about 1/8" cube to get passed into the blower, and

the 53 series used a straight cut set of rotor lobes, unlike the larger displacements that used
helical cut rotors, the straight cut would have to shear a complete bite of the phone book as opposed
the the helical that could cut it like a pair of scissor, but

the clearances are so close between the rotors and the blower body, (.008-.012" iirc) which means things are
very tight... so tight that a V series blower when laid flat on a steel table you can turn the rotor by hand and pull enough
vacuum that the rotors will reverse rotation when you turn loose, or if you turn in the direction to push air through
it will develop enough pressure to lift itself as if on a airhockey table,, pretty impressive considering the weight envolved.

the blower drive was designed to shear before severe damage to the blower took place, it took very little to shear that drive
certainly far less than ever a very few pages of a phone book.

if as you say it happened as you said it did, you should count yourself as probably the only man on the planet that ever
witnessed such an event.

i have seen other engine's ingest things like redrags that came out as flaming/smouldering bits but never past the blower
of a detroit.

bob g
« Last Edit: August 08, 2009, 03:30:14 AM by mobile_bob »
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Doug

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2009, 04:24:17 AM »
I saw the yoke of a boiled egg floating in the rad of my 80 mustang after purchase.

I saw smoke rings and fire come out of both ends of my dads 81 Cutless.

I also saw my Dad quickly but clamly walk over to an up ended excavator as a boy in a ditch and close the shutter Bob was talking about after the opperator bailed.

But I have never seen any engine consume any greater or lesser works of literature.......
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2009, 04:43:59 AM »
" i been to 3 hog f$%&ins, and 2 county fairs, but i never seen nuttin like that"

:)

or my favorite

like granny used to say

"maybe so, but i kinda F%$^ing doubt it!"

bob g
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Doug

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2009, 12:37:16 AM »
Bob are you sitting down.

We agree on something.

Ya I know I am scared too....
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

mobile_bob

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2009, 03:25:06 AM »
down right freaky ain't it?

lmao

bob g
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roverjohn

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Re: Yanmar yeah!.........but white smoke
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2009, 03:27:23 AM »
I hate getting in the way of a good talk but I have an update on the Yanmar. It's running much better. I still have not put a load on it but it will run down reliably to about 800rpm or so and will then race back up to full speed by flipping the gov lever. I think I just need to run it for a bit under at least a two or three HP load and it will build enough heat to get things cleaned up. Well at least as much as it's going to get cleaned up which may allow for it to drive a little genny. I need to get a vid posted.