My First Listeroid Experience

[Quisp]

Hi folks!

I found this site after some web searching for answers on my Listeroid. I purchased a new 6/1 from George at Utterpower in late '05. The engine sat in my shed untouched for years. The inside was extremely clean. I was not able to find any casting sand. George had said that the lot that mine came from was the cleanest he'd seen. This past weekend, my son and I finally got it set up and fired it up. Here's the $0.50 version:

I intended the 6/1 to live in my shed with the exhaust piped out the back wall. The 10x14 shed is built on 9 concrete pillars which are 12" in diameter, and 36" deep into the ground. There are 4x4s accross the pillars, then the shed's 2x4 floor joists on top. then the 5/8" plywood floor. I put 2 more 4x4 rails down on the floor (about 4' long) and bolted them through the floor. The 6/1 went on top of these rails and was bolter to the 4x4s. After the coolong tank, exhaust and fuel delivery was all aet up, we started it up.......  After about 20 seconds I had to shut it down because everything was shaking so badly. I literally was afraid the shed would come apart.

Obviously, the shed floor had way too much give to it. The 6/1 was also not directly over one of the 4x4s that run the length of the shed. We took it all apart again and took up the floor. I intend to add some additional concrete pillars that come just through the floor. I'll mount 4x4s to the pillars and the 6/1 to the 4x4s. That way, it'll still be 'in' the shed. But it won't be connected to it.  I have a ST5 gen head to add once the engine is in place.

All the best.

[Irish Artist]

Welcome Quisp!

I'm the proud owner of a 6/1 myself, I'm betting that our engines are sisters. I just purchased mine a while back from Power Solutions, it was the last one they had in the warehouse, been holding it for years. Its build date on the head is 2005. Joel and George have been working together for years.

Yes indeed, it sounds like your foundation will need to be a "bit" more stout to handle the engine as is, might have a little better luck if you get it balanced. I'm in the process of balancing mine, had to turn my focus to another project for a while, will get back to it soon. Lots of info on engine balancing to be found in the forum, you'll find a fair conversation on it towards the end of my topic : "Murph's 6/1 Listeroid Gen Set"

The best of luck to you and keep us posted on any new progress.

Regards,
Murph'

[apogee_man]

If either of these were mine, I'd be pulling it apart and taking all the parts to a machine shop that can properly balance the rotating assembly using the correct tools.

There is NO way things should be shaking like you describe. 

I've read similar stories over an over, and each time I just shake my head because I can't believe folks are running them that way.

Being out of balance that far will tear the engine apart over time.

Wouldn't it be wild if we found out that India was broaching the key slot incorrectly, and hence, positioning the counter balance weights in the wrong place?

Just my $.02

Steve

[Quisp]

Hi Murph!  Hi Steve!

Thank you for your replies. Yes, balancing.....    I intend to do that, but I need to be able to run it for more than 20 seconds to do it. Maybe I could hook up an electric motor to turn it and accomplish the same thing. We'll see.  I'll keep you posted. Regardless, I have to figure a way to keep it in the shed. I'm in a residential subdivision and I can't have it just sitting outside somewhere with a tarp or a box over it. My exhaust system terminates with the little can muffler that came with it, but I have added a second muffler as well. It didn't sound too bad, but I wish I had the opportunity to let it run, close the shed doors, and see what it sounds like outside.

Murph,  Yes, George and Joel are good guys. Also, the manufacture date on mine is also 2005. Perhaps they came from the same lot. I wish it had occurred to me to take pics to document the project. I'll have to do that going forward.

All the best,
Quisp

[rpg52]

Quisp,
My engine is also a PS from late '05.  I mounted it on a frame of 6" channel iron about 18"X48", the ST5 is also mounted with an adjusting screw to tighten the belt.  When I initially started mine, the vibrations would allow it to wander around on the cement floor.  Later I mounted that frame inside an old truck frame bolted to concrete.  After reading the discussions here, I made two alterations.  I welded two pieces of 3" heavy pipe as cross members, which reduces the flex in the frame.  I also poured a concrete block underneath it with 4 - 18" long J-bolts, which pass through the frame to securely hold it down.  This holds it steady now, but I can still see the vibration in the truck frame [it has a 80 hp diesel engine (~3000 lbs.) mounted on the other end of it]. 

The vibration problem is quite complex it seems, partially because of the design of the engine.  The heavy piston and con rod are going up and down, while the flywheels and all the other parts are spinning.  The pulse of the power stroke and the compression stroke also adds an unusual acceleration and decelleration (sp?) to the mix.  Seems like a challenge to balance all that, but bolting it securely to ~1 ton of mass seemed to be the traditional method of dealing with it.  I'm sure balancing will help, but there is still some unusual forces at work on these engines, just because of the design.  There is endless discussion of this on the site, if you are willing to search for it.
Ray

[M61hops]

Welcome Quisp!  How tall are the cement posts, that is, how high off the ground is the floor of your shed?  If it was me, I would pour a block of concrete bedded into the earth and sticking up through the wood floor to mount the genset to.  Also I would balance the engine.  I spun my 6-1 with a golf cart motor (after removing the COV plug) to balance it by trial and error.  Even after balancing the engine I think it is best to have it fastened to as much mass as possible, I doubt that you could ever get it to stop shaking the shed if it is attached to it's floor.  Good luck!     Leland

[xyzer]

If it were mine I would Mr X balance it first then resilent mount it in the shed. A concrete post under it might help also

If either of these were mine, I'd be pulling it apart and taking all the parts to a machine shop that can properly balance the rotating assembly using the correct tools.

The best shop in the world can't balance it correctly unless they know the % to allow for the recrirocating mass. All engines have a different sweet spot. That cost me a few bucks to figure out. If you do go that way 68% will get you in the ballpark.

Dave

[ronmar]

Even with the best balance, you have a large single piston trying to maintain RPM on what, 250# of spinning flywheels...  Whatever you mount it to has to be flex free, otherwise the torque pulses will move it every time the engine fires...  If it moves worse with load applied, something is giving in the structure. 

Quisp
   When you got your engine, was it complete, or did you put on the wheels and head?  Do your flywheels have cast in counter weights?  I know george and Joel got in a batch of center balanced wheels at some time a few years ago, that didn't have counterweights.  I know, I got a set with my kit engine.  This wasn't a big deal as I was going to balance it anyway and it gave me a clean slate to start with.  I ran it a bit before I balanced it, with the engine bolted to generator frame with the generator on the frame also(about 1000# total weight).  Even without counter weight, it didn't move all that much setting unsecured on my garage floor.

You description sounds like flex in the game somewhere which is storing and releasing energy.  I like the cast concrete block poured up thru the floor idea personally, but whatever method really needs a rigid steel frame that engine and generator bolt to.  I had some pretty heavy wall steel box available to build mine, but even it has a little flex.  If I was building another I would use heavy "I" beams with heavy wall round pipe welded in as cross members.  If you had a rigid frame to bolt engine and generator to, this will take care of the majority of the torque forces.  Even if bolted to the floor, this would also spread the vibration out across a larger portion of the structure.  I think even a rigid engine frame would still have problems in your situation though, because if it can flex, it will flex, and your floor does flex... 

As far as movement and vibration go, mass is your friend.  A body in motion tends to stay in motion, while a body at rest tends to stay at rest.  The greater the mass , the more force it takes to get it moving.  Your vibration and torque forces are limited, so the greater the mass of the whole assembly, the less it will move with these forces applied.

[Quisp]

Leland,
The ground under the shed slopes gently. The floor under the spot where the 6/1 will live is 8-12" below the floor. In order to pour a block of concrete, I'd have to cut several of the floor joists which I'd rather not do. Since the floor joists are every 12" on center, that leaves 10.75" between floor joists. If I pour 4 concrete posts 10" in diameter and 36" deep, I could bring them just above the level of the floor. I would have to cut circles out of the plywood floor and put it back down over the pillars. I could them build my 4x4 frame on top if the pillars (bolted down to the pillars with J bolts), and mount the 6/1-ST5 on top of the 4x4 frame. That way, it's weight is on the ground beneath, not the shed and it still enjoys the weather/sound protection of being in the shed. That's my current plan anyway. I'm looking for some type of dense rubber I can mount between the block and the frame also.

XYZer, can you define 'resilent mount' ?

Ronmar,  my 6/1 came complete, and has cast counter weights. They don't seem to be as large as some that I've seen pictured though. Since I don't weld, I was planning on making my frame out of 4x4 pressure treated lumber.

Then I can work on balancing the flywheels better.
Thanks for all the replies.
Quisp

[Irish Artist]

Hey Quisp,

When I said "it sounds like your foundation will need to be a "bit" more stout to handle the engine"  well, I was being  sarcastic, you need a foundation, be it steel on concrete or wood on concrete, you got to get a base under that beast.

It's true that some guys have tamed their engines to be portable without concrete, but look at the structure they are on and, the prep work they did on the engine, Ronmar is telling you the truth, if you're doing a stationary install concrete is the best solution. There is nothing wrong with these engines other than they are one lungers and built in India, okay so maybe they are handicapped, maybe we can all get a government grant!

Hell, move the engine to a corner or the shed, block it up, cut the joists, frame in a pressure treated surround and finish the hole with plywood to get to the ground. I'd recommend you go for at least a 2 x 4 foot area about 18 to 24 inches in depth. that will give you about a ton of concrete. Consider setting some J bolts in the forms on rebar for the frame mount so you have a reliable connection to the concrete. If your industrious, you can mix the concrete yourself, personally I'd pay the short load charge and have it delivered. Save you allot of work, ask for 5 sack, it stout.

It would be worth it I promise, what, three days of work at the most and she'll hang in your shed for a lifetime!

That's my 2 bits.
Murph'

[Quisp]

Well,   we started digging under the shed yesterday afternoon. It turns out that my telephone line just happens to go under my shed. Yup....  I cut it.
It's always something! 

I've decided to go with a block instead of pillars. It'll be about 3'x4'x2'. I'll pour the concrete right up to the bottom of the 2x4 floor joists; sink J bolts; and bolt 6x6 pressure treated lumber on top of the concrete between the floor joists. The top of the 6x6s will be just above floor level. That will be the base for the 6/1 - ST5.

All the best,
Quisp

[Irish Artist]

Now that sounds like something I'd of done! (cutting the phone line) 

Your block should add up to about 1 1/2 ton, that'll do!

The Lister Manual recommends you get the crankshaft about 27 inches off the floor for ease of starting and maintenance, if there is any way you can get it up a bit more, it would be good. If I'm translating your measurements correctly, they are 3' wide, 4' long and 2' deep. If it's not too late, I'd consider going 2'wide, 4' long and 3' deep. build your forms up above your floor level. If I did my math right, that would put your crank at 26 inches or so off the floor if you include your 6x6s.

You may want to consider keeping a gap between the block and the shed structure, otherwise the vibrations will transmit to the shed and the whole thing would vibrate.

Best or luck, good to hear you decided to go for the block.

Murph'

[xyzer]

The top of the 6x6s will be just above floor level. That will be the base for the 6/1 - ST5.

Quisp,
I would keep the concrete even with or below the floor level. Even with the floor would make it easy to abandon the setup and have no trip points. If it is level with the floor your timbers would make the starting/operating height much more comfortable. If you had some concrete anchors made up that bolts could be threaded into it might be handy also.
Dave

[12 gauge]

Quisp,
Just read your thread, and good on the concrete block!  Running it on the shed floor would turn it into a big sounding board like a guitar.  And don't be anxious about using those 6x6's for your frame.  That's what I did and it's working great, even before I've attached it to concrete.  It's just sitting on the dirt floor of my shed and it vibrates the ground some but doesn't walk around.  Also, I've found it easy to muffle the exhaust noise, but the mechanical noise from the tappets, injector etc. has to be contained in the shed and it'll get pretty hot in there so consider your ventelation.
 http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/CPR8AxumbJ7L-ZDqux2Vlw?authkey=Gv1sRgCLOqpvb29siN3AE&feat=directlink
Here is a link to a picture of my engine on it's 6x6 wood frame, maybe it'll give you ideas.
Hope you post some pictures.
RH

[Quisp]

Hi RH,   thanks for the advice and the pic of your setup. Looks great!  We poured the concrete 2 days ago. It took 33, 80# bags. Boy was I glad when we were done. I reinforced the block with rebar, and sunk threaded rods into the concrete, positioned for the 6/1 base. I put nuts and washers at the bottom end of the rods for added strength (probably overkill). I haven't taken any pics yet. I never think of it until I'm not there. This coming weekend, I'll mount up the 6/1 and ST5, but I'll wait a couple more weeks to run it. I want to give the concrete time to cure.

All the best,