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Author Topic: listeroid air conditioning  (Read 38168 times)

panaceabeachbum

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2009, 01:29:05 PM »
This is of intrest to me also . looking at the physical size of the compressor in the average home ac condensor  it shouldnt take much . I seem to remember aprox 4hp/hr per 10kbtu from an ac class years ago .


I do remember a fish house a few blocks away that had an old hit and miss farm type engine driving the compressor for there walk in cooler when I was a kid , my dad says it was common when he was a kid to hear them chugging away at all the fish houses and ice houses here on the coast .
I have access to a bunch of ac components and a nieghbor thats a life long AC guy and tinkerer Ill go over in the next few days and get some of the prelim math out of the way .

panaceabeachbum

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2009, 03:30:13 PM »
I just spoke with my AC guy and he thinks an ammonia heat absorbtion system is the ticket as we can use the exausht heat to do the work, here is a quick primer  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator

clytle374

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2009, 07:20:59 PM »
Ammonia isn't used often due to it being dangerous.  I have of using it in an isolated system before, but due to the whole meth problem it is hard to get.  How do you get it in the USA?

I know propane isn't an approved refrigerant, but who does what to you for refrigerant with it?

panaceabeachbum

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2009, 08:36:59 PM »
ammonia is in just about every refridge and ac unit in travel trailers/rv's here in the states, or at least all of them that are propane powered. I dont know if we are talking about a large enough qty in a refridge system to cause a problem or not. There is also the possibilty of using a heat exchanger of some sort and not having the ammonia ever enter the house . Its also used in large scale ice production

 . I havent checked in a while but its commonly sold at farm supply houses and sprayed underground to increase avail nitrogen . I see a big train car sized tank of it at the feed and supply place not far from my house . Here is some info  on its use in farming http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/DC2326.html


clytle374

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2009, 09:47:44 PM »
So now that I have researched that a little. As usual the US government has lost its mind and is in bad need of a overhaul.

My take on the matter, I might have missed somethings, is that if your car leaks freon you are guilty. Including an accident or failed component.  Funny, CO2 is a refrigerant so the act of using dry ice looks to be a crime.  And lets not even get into using propane or other blatant acts of defiance. 

Now for the solution to the my problem.  I will use ammonia, the system enclosure will be sealed and vented into permeable pipes buried in my garden.  Since it is legal to use ammonia on crops and a system will invariably loose refrigerant over time, I might just patent this.  Now to get all other systems declared illegal. 

bergfire

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2009, 01:39:07 AM »
I get a laugh when I here about propane or ammonia being a dangerous refridgerant.  I've worked on jobs where people have suffocated on freon, people have gotten frost bite.  I have not seen one problem with ammonia systems or propane systems.

billswan

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2009, 04:57:44 AM »
wow great thread keep it coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am a farmer and 2 of my tractors have been converted from r12 to propane works great........

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

panaceabeachbum

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2009, 06:45:36 PM »
Looking at the one link it shows a 60/40 mix of propane and butane being equal to r12 which is really close to whats commercialy avail her in fl.

I like the link to the car ac compressors , I had no idea the small sanden compressor and ac system in my car was 25k btu . That equiv to the large window units that will keep a 6-700sq ft room nice and cool. i think the only reason they dont seem that effecint in the car is that even on recirculate all cars exchange the cabin air every few minutes to whisk out any fumes etc

clytle374

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2009, 11:33:33 PM »
I found a few posts(not on this site) that claim that an auto AC compressor is only rated for about 6 months on time since that is about the life span of a car.  Anyone here know if they would hold up to extended duty, like in a house AC or freezer application? 

panaceabeachbum

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2009, 06:05:13 AM »
Dont know but thats 3000+ hours , timing my home ac this evening at 88 f outside and 90% humidity  the compressor is running less than 10 minutes in any given hour, the fan runs longer but the compressor isnt.

Having opened up one of the sanden commpressors to replace seals and looking at the cheesy little compressor in a 25k btu korean window unit thats run well for 5 years I would be surprised if the car compressor didnt easily out last it .
 The local auto junk yard sells ac compressors for $35 . I have a complete ac system i pulled out of a jeep I am going to play with here shortly . I think i am going to experiment with 134 since its cheap and easy to find here in the US . I belive 134 is bieng outlawed in the EU next year . What are you guys going to be "allowed" to use?

prof.blink

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2009, 02:26:21 AM »
cap, i think a york comp. is a pos. the macks got rid of them in favor of the screw types some time in the 90s. also try a com. hvac contractor for a servicable used belt driven comp. blink

panaceabeachbum

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2009, 04:13:27 AM »
I dont think it was the brand he was concerened with but more the fact that semi truck comppressors have the potential to last a long time

here is the simple math for ton to btu conversion http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_BTU_per_Hour_equals_1_Ton_of_Air_Conditioning

For refrence we are cooling a 1700 sq foot house in Florida nicely with a 3.5 ton unit , if I understand correctly that would be 42k btu , right in line with the 42k btu delco a6 on my pickup truck , I got a cost of $227 new or $170 reman last week

SHIPCHIEF

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2009, 05:39:25 AM »
Ammonia compressor systems are among the oldest industrial refrigeration systems. They are still more efficient than modern refrigerants, but they are potentially dangerous becuase ammonia is toxic, and though not rated flammable, is explosive. (?)
United Fruit, a US flag shipping company before WWII used ammonia systems in thier ships to keep bananas cool on the way north from central america, many old ice houses still use it today. It was also commonly used in ice scating rinks.
Propane is used in eastern europe, where brains win out over lobbyists. a home refridgerator has about as much propane as a Bic lighter? Where are the horror stories of death and destruction from R290 propane reefers?
R290 is pure propane, a hydrocarbon and efficient naturally occurring refrigerant with similar properties to R22
No ozone depletion potential, ODP = 0  Extremely low global warming potential GWP = 3
Environmentally safe but highly flammable. Used only after careful consideration to safety.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 05:50:34 AM by SHIPCHIEF »
Ashwamegh 25/2 & ST12
Lister SR2 10Kw 'Long Edurance' genset on a 10 gallon sump/skid,
Onan 6.5NH in an old Jeager Compressor trailer and a few CCK's

mobile_bob

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Re: listeroid air conditioning
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2009, 06:03:17 AM »
Scott:

i just hated suggesting propanes use based on things i see people do
such as a question on another forum i frequent
"can i solder up a hole in an A coil"

the answers were everywhere from good to dangerous if you were to use propane

however
i can see the use of propane as a refrigerant in my future, even though i have
about 30 lbs of virgin r12 and about 150lbs of virgin r22 stockpiled,, er i know a guy who knows a guy
who has a friends, who's ex's step uncle has some... :)

i can certainly see using it for prototyping work for sure.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info