Murph's 6/1 Listeroid Gen Set

[Irish Artist]

Hey Guys,
Below is a link to a web page that shows my Listeroid gen set experience. It's not done yet, and never will be if I have anything to do with it!

My first goal for this system is for emergency backup and peace of mind in case the sh*t ever hits the fan! After that, I'm going to work towards an alternative power system consisting of a battery bank, solar panels, inverter, etc.

I may not have done as thorough of a job of prepping my 6/1 for service as some of you, but I think I've done enough for now.

I've learned allot these past few months from this forum and I'd like to thank all of you for sharing by doing the same.

http://www.murphyillustrates.com/lister/

Please feel free to post you comments after review (like you really need an invite for that!)

My regards,
Murph'

[ronmar]

Looks good so far.  In the second video, it looks like the block was rocking back and forth a little.  Did I see that correctly?  What exactly is the concrete block setting on?  I bolted mine to a 1300# block which I set on a 1/2" rubber stall mat on the concrete floor of my generator shed(old pumphouse).  I can't really feel it more than a few feet away.  My living room is about 30' from the generator and I can barely detect that the generator is running.  I expect this to change when I finalize the exhaust.

You are right about the cooling tank being small.  I don't think it has enough surface area to keep that engine cool under a sustained load, particularly with a closed top.  As the water nears 200F, the exposed water surface area of an open tank will shed up to 10 times as much heat per SQ/IN thru evaporation as will the side and bottom walls of the tank.

When I run my 6/1 with the heatexchanger secondary feeding a 25 gallon poly drum, I am good for about 3-3.5 hours of loaded runtime before the drum heat-saturates and I start to run into cooling problems.  this is easilly fixed by adding some cool water to the drum though.  I think you will be happier with a lower volume sealed radiator or heat exchanger to harvest the heat.

Good luck with your projects, and keep the updates comming.

[Irish Artist]

Hey Ronmar,

Yes indeed, the block is rockin' abit back and forth, it's sitting in good ole' southwest washington clay, no contact with any concrete. The foundation block and everything onboard moves about a 1/4 inch. I'm planning on working on engine balance via the Mr X method to lessen that movement, but since nothing is feeling any serious impact, I'm not too concerned at this point.

On the cooling tank, the 1" plug is out of the top which allows steam and pressure to escape, but yeah, 16 gallons just won't keep her cool for a long run.

Giving the heat exchanger a serious consideration as my home heat is forces water through an oil fired furnace, perfect match, eh?

Thanks for the feedback!

Murph'

[LowGear]

I really respect your art project.  I’m trying to cross over that bridge myself but haven’t quite made a step quite as nice as yours yet.

I have to ask a couple of questions.  1.)  Why didn't you tie the ecology block into the concrete floor with rebar and pour right up against it?  B.)  Would just tamping chip based concrete down the gap actually lock this unit up?

2.)  How much energy is being lost on rocking and rolling?  B.)  Would an hour or two of balancing this unit pay for itself in a matter of a few hundred hours of operation?

2000 pounds moving .25 inches 325 times a minute is 325/4 = 81 inches or well over 3 feet.  3X2000 = 6000 foot pounds per minute.  6,000/33,000 = .18 hp.  Now if we’re getting a 2 to 1 ratio of hp to watts then 10 watts a minute is being lost.  That’s 600 watts an hour.  Maybe I’ve been shopping solar grants a little too hard this last month.

Should your generator shop be dug up in a few thousand years the archeologist will have a theory about it being an ancient religion centered on the worship of rotating cast iron wheels being keep alive by small pockets of extremists.

[billswan]

Hello Irish Artist

Great looking setup, looking forward to more up dates!

Thanks for the tip on where to drill the head for a temp sensor. Have been wondering where it would be thick enough for something like that.
Is there plenty of room for a sensor bulb inside the head?

Billswan

[Irish Artist]

Hello LowGear,

One of the problems of having artistic tendencies is projects take me a heck of allot longer than most folks.

On your questions, first, I kept the block and pad separate as an experiment in isolating the vibrations, yes I could tamp concrete chips into the gaps but before I do that I'm going to try adding some more clay and pack that in. I'm also considering ground up rubber.

Next, When you add up the numbers as you did, the lose becomes evident. I already have the 2" channel iron chopped, drilled and tapped with set bolts in place. I've been waiting until I could run her under load to begin the balancing process. I had done some chalk marking on the flywheels earlier, they were about 14" long and darn near directly opposite of the counter balances, so I think I know where I need to add weight.

Hail to the mighty Flywheel!
__________________

Hey Billswan,

I poked all around in the head water jacket looking for a large enough cavity to accept the temp probe, I found a few that were large enough but not so good on exterior location. Where I ended up at has plenty of room for the probe and the wall of the head was about 3/8 of an inch thick. I was hoping it would be thicker, and this may vary from head to head. It was a trick blocking up the head under the drill press and I was sweating bullets as I drilled the hole! That cast iron is rather soft but after I had it tapped, I felt I was home free. No leaks so far!

Regards,
Murph'

[billswan]

On your questions, first, I kept the block and pad separate as an experiment in isolating the vibrations, yes I could tamp concrete chips into the gaps but before I do that I'm going to try adding some more clay and pack that in. I'm also considering ground up rubber.

Hail to the mighty Flywheel!
__________________

Irish and forum

How about filling that space between the floor and block with the densest expando foam you can find?
cut up some plywood to form a top for the grove and drill a hole or 2 for the foam nozzle and fill the void and let it cure. if it pushes
up the ply wood when it cures great then you know it is full. remove plywood trim up foam and the test for vibration. One other thought it would be best if you did your balance job now before the foam. Just a thought, what does the form think?? let me guess the foam is not stiff enough???

Maybe before foaming 8 pieces of heavy rubber of some sort could be packed between the 4 sides and then embedded in the dense foam.....
Billswan

[Irish Artist]

Hey Billswan,

Some interesting thoughts there, my experience with the expanding foam has been that once it sets, it becomes rather stiff. I'd think the movement would compress it and it would eventually flatten out and be of no use.

Now chunks of heavy rubber, say from a horse stall mat, driven into the gaps, that might work.

later,
Murph'

[LowGear]

I guess I didn't express that just right. 

Would just tamping chip based concrete down the gap actually lock this unit up?

 
Chip is a rock product I've ran into here in Hawaii that is used in lou of pea gravel (1/4" rock) or #4 sand which have to be shipped in.  It is used around catchment tanks as a leveling and modest shaping product around the base of these corrugated tanks to help hold them in place and not puncture the PVC liners.  Oh, just chip and nothing else.  It’s a tad smaller than pea gravel and has the advantage of not being so migratory in case of modest leak or over-flow (the most common tank killer).  It now finds its way into concrete in place of crushed rock.  Not quite as strong but can be oozed into tricky places like a 1 or 2 in inch gap between an echo block and a hard place.  I’d guess a 5 sack mortar mix would work just as well given a couple of weeks to cure.

Now that I’ve slept on it I might experiment with opposing hardwood wedges. 

Anyway, your energy building looks great and I always like to see rebar in any perimeter just to let the natives know there’s a professional working in their neck of the woods.

LowGear

[Irish Artist]

LowGear,

I had a lengthy conversation with my brother, about wasted horsepower, and I'm getting my mind wrapped around the point that your making. Not wanting to sound dumb, but I was struggling with the concept that  even though my engine and gen head were in sync in regards to movement, I was still losing hp due to the engine having to move that block. In my mind I was thinking that the block movement was a by product after the fact that the gen head received it's share of the engines output. Now I'm up to speed with the notion that the more focused the engines efforts are to one purpose the more efficient it will be.

I'm coming to the conclusion that as the Moody Blues said: It's a question of balance! Not only of the engine but of the system. I had my eye set on isolating the vibration due to the fact that I've read so many posts concerned with this issue, I had a theory I wanted to pursue and so I did. And, to be honest, the way the system runs currently is rather pleasant, everything has a comfortable inline jiggle to it, no sense of hard impact or concern for aggressive wear. On top of that I believe that if we restrain these beasts too much they'll more than likely tear themselves apart.

But, I do want to harness as much of the potential power as I can muster for this engine, so I'm going to approach this in stages. First off I'm going to work on balancing the engine as best I can. From what I'm gathering, if I can minimize the fore and aft movement then learn to live with the up and down movement caused by combustion then I'll be doing good. After that, I like your idea of the hardwood wedges just to see how the unit reacts to getting restricted in it's movement.

Thank you for your guidance and your complements, there are some things I know how to do right!

Regards,
Murph'

[cujet]

Bob and I used a helicopter balancing setup called an ACES 20-20. All we did was hold the a single accelerometer on the engine by hand. We used two locations (necessary on a single) on top of the head and in plane with the horizontal around the crank.

This gives accurate information about vibe levels and a really good mental picture of what's going on. For instance, Bob's eng was showing major vertical acceleration but not much horizontal accel. So, we added weight on the flywheels opposite the piston. 7 pounds of it eventually. What we ended up with was even vertical and horiz acceleration . The engine is stunningly smooth.

But, it took 7 pounds of lead!!!

Chris

[cujet]

http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister10.html

Here is the website that pic above came from.

Chris

[Geno]

I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet but if the engine mounting block is tied into the slab it might transmit a lot more vibration through the ground. That might not matter if the engine is far enough from the house though. My engine mounting block goes 18” into the ground and I can feel it in my basement walls and will sometimes get dishes rattling in the cabinets 75' away. My engine is relatively smooth too. It’s that power pulse that does it.

Thanks, Geno

[Irish Artist]

I don’t think it’s been mentioned yet but if the engine mounting block is tied into the slab it might transmit a lot more vibration through the ground. That might not matter if the engine is far enough from the house though. My engine mounting block goes 18” into the ground and I can feel it in my basement walls and will sometimes get dishes rattling in the cabinets 75' away. My engine is relatively smooth too. It’s that power pulse that does it.

Thanks, Geno

Geno,

My thoughts exactly! That's why I designed the install as I did. Currently, I can barely feel the vibrations in my shop even though I poured the new floor right up against my shop foundation. I step into my house which is about 20 feet from the System, you don't even know its running.

First, balance the engine, then consider damping the movement by filling the gap between the block and pad.

Hey Chris,

I've always admired Bob's portable 6/1, a thing of beauty. I have a local airport nearby, Olympia WA. I'll try to contact someone down there and see if I can locate an ACES 20-20. I'm assuming that's what's at your feet in the pic? Looks very portable!

7lb.s!! Holy Mackrel!! I was thinking I might need to add a pound or two at the most, I know, it all depends on the engine.

On my very first run of my engine, I had lag bolted the crate bottom down to railroad ties, glad I did! She's a hopper! That's when I decided a ton of concrete was a good idea!

Thanks for the input guys!

Regards,
Murph'

[LowGear]

I am in full agreement with alls of yous. 

If the engine is operating properly there's no need to anchor it to the mantel crust of mother earth.  Thanks for helping me work through the symptomatic approach I suggested.  That's three and a half pounds on each flywheel - right?

Casey