Author Topic: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............  (Read 8976 times)

compig

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Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« on: June 13, 2009, 02:18:28 PM »
Just picked up a genuine Lister manual for SOM sets dated 1969 covering 6/1 & 8/1 sets. There is a comment stating that the radiator cooled versions are rated at 5% less output at the generator then the tank cooled version. Must be that the 70 gallon tank cooled version has more heat removal capacity than the rad version.
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potter

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2009, 02:27:05 PM »
Isn-t a fan involved and its losses  ???.

Stan

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2009, 02:43:15 PM »
Yup, it's the fan. 
Stan

GuyFawkes

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2009, 02:56:01 PM »
Just picked up a genuine Lister manual for SOM sets dated 1969 covering 6/1 & 8/1 sets. There is a comment stating that the radiator cooled versions are rated at 5% less output at the generator then the tank cooled version. Must be that the 70 gallon tank cooled version has more heat removal capacity than the rad version.

6 bhp x 746 watts = 4,476 watts

5% of 4,476 = 223.8 watts

200 watts / 1/3rd hp is about right to drive a fan at 1,000 rpm.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
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Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

compig

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2009, 03:19:25 PM »
Doh , I'm so used to seeing the tank cooled versions I forgot the fan on the rad cooled !!
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Stan

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2009, 01:28:44 AM »
It should be the same as if you put an electric fan on a rad and ran it with the generator.  In theory.
Stan

oliver90owner

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2009, 07:41:22 AM »
It should be the same as if you put an electric fan on a rad and ran it with the generator.  In theory.

Nope.  The electric fan should be more efficient because it would not be running continuously - provided one fitted a thermo-switch.  That is why all (or nearly all) cars are fitted that way oem.

There were other considerations in the case of cars, like the fan will pull much more power at high engine revs (fan-speed/power cubed relationship) and probably most of that time while the engine least needed extra cooling (above the draught caused by the forward motion) and weight consideration - less metal in the rad and less coolant in the system and the warm-up times for reducing high engine-wear periods.  There would be others too - streamlining, aethsetics, cost, etc.

Not so much difference if running 24/7 and radiator is vertical but other airflow options could improve the efficiency.  Still generally a pumped system with a rad, so the pump will be absorbing power all the time and will be the bigger energy user.

On my 1960/70s Fords, I always fitted my larger pump pulley to decrease the energy requirement as the oem was always well over-sized.

Regards, RAB

compig

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2009, 12:22:37 PM »
It should be the same as if you put an electric fan on a rad and ran it with the generator. In theory.

Nope. The electric fan should be more efficient because it would not be running continuously - provided one fitted a thermo-switch. That is why all (or nearly all) cars are fitted that way oem.

Regards, RAB

Would that be the case though ?  A car's rad would be cooled by airstream when moving , fan only cuts in when in traffic or stationary and perhaps during very heavy load , like towing uphill. A stationary engine has no moving airstream and is running at high load so even an electric fan would be required continuously.

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potter

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2009, 12:27:47 PM »
My electric fan only cuts in about every 30 min for 3 to 4 min.

compig

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2009, 12:41:05 PM »
Even on full load ?
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potter

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2009, 01:41:44 PM »
This is about 3,500w on a 8/1 which is my normal load plus or minus for fridge and a/c comp cut in and out. I also have a steday 450w load from a car alt for my battery bank charging this runs my water pump at all times this is my house presure pump not engine this is thermosyphen
potter
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 01:44:28 PM by potter »

compig

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2009, 02:26:46 PM »
Is that a genuine Lister 8/1 SOM ?
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potter

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2009, 02:53:52 PM »
The engine is original on original base but it is a st -5 head, I did get the original gen head to work but it only lasted for two hours before the armature burnt :'( Iam using the original heavey pully and have no flicker at all.

oliver90owner

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2009, 02:54:50 PM »
so even an electric fan would be required continuously.

If that were the case what is the argument for a thermostat?  Plain and simple - there will be times when the fan is not required, so it would be more efficient tio not run it.

With a stationary engine you can fit as large a radiator as you wish.  All design considerations have to be a compromise somewhere - unless it is a safety issue.  And even safety issues are compromised by some....

RAB

clytle374

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Re: Interesting Lister SOM fact..............
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2009, 03:17:35 PM »
The electric fan on our GM-90 16/1 is a Hayden rated for a 2.2 liter engine.  It works great under low load situations, but under heavy extended loads gets overwhelmed.  I'm betting that it saves fuel under light loads, but really doubt that an alternator charging a battery and then running the fan is efficient when running.  I'm tempted to add a couple hydronic baseboard heaters on the outside wall of the garage before the radiator to eliminate it coming on at all under low loads and help under high loads. 

The downside is the thermostat is on the lower side of the radiator and a few minutes after shutdown thermosiphon kicks it back on and pulls my battery down quite a bit.