Puppeteer

Author Topic: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?  (Read 15049 times)

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« on: June 09, 2009, 12:03:21 AM »
I would like to build a gen set using an Chinese ST alternator. 

I have a chance to buy a Lister-Petter TR2 and was wondering if this would be a better choice then a Changfa clone.

Any comments?

Thanks,

C.J.

prof.blink

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 45
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2009, 12:28:34 AM »
btrc,apples and oranges, i have been searching and reading this site for a while , hearing tales of whoe from people buying engines full of sand, sloppy fits,misalighnments,missing parts and gross imbalance. sounds to me, that there is more usable hrs left in one of ole blightys engines,than a new one from china or india. i would love to be proved wrong by someone w/@ min.2500 hrs of revenue service. not a tinkerer anoying the neighbors for 2hrs shutting it off,taking it apart for photo opps,and posting acolades. blink

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2009, 12:18:14 PM »
Well lets put it another way. 

Being in south Louisiana we can get power outages from hurricanes that last from 1 day to three weeks.  I need a back up system that I can depend on.  Low maintenance is also a goal.     

I have found a Lister Petter TR2 locally with about 50 hours on the clock.  It is an 2008 model and I think I can get it for what it would cost me to get a 1115 Changfa clone delivered.  This engine is the variable speed model witch would give me more options as to what power level I can achieve.  I believe mating this to a Chinese 20kw alternator would give me a very durable and long lived backup power solution.  I am thinking if I test run it for a couple hours every other month I can keep it in good working order.

I am concerned about the Lister Petter being air cooled.  I would like to be able to run this gen set unattended for at least 20 hours a day during power outages in my area.  From what I have read, the Changfa clone will do that with a closed loop cooling system.  Will the air cooled Lister Petter do that?  The specifications say continuous duty in ambient temps up to 122 degrees F.   It gets hot here but not that hot.

Some of the posts I have read here say the air cooled Listers should not be considered a 24/7 engine.  Others on this site and the specs say it can with proper maintenance.   I am not sure what proper maintenance involves but if it is fluid and filter changes that is not a problem.  Even valve adjustments periodically would be no problem. I am capable of any maintenance needed.

I am also a little concerned about the noise level of the air cooled Lister.  Will it be that much more then a Changfa clone?  I should be able to build a small shed to quiet it down.

Any info from anyone with experience with the Lister TR2 or any of the other air cooled engines would be appreciated.


Thanks,
C.J.

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2009, 12:55:59 PM »
The Lister would be better than any Eastern import IMHO. Just a thought though , being a variable speed model it probably won't have a governer which would be needed for power generation.
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2009, 03:18:47 PM »
Compig, that is a very good point. 

I talked to a guy with Diesel Electric in Alaska this morning. (Sorry for waking you.)
I think he posts here.
He said there is a kit to change it to a 1500 or 1800 governor.
I am checking on a price.

Thanks,

C.J.

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2009, 03:29:29 PM »
There is a school of thought that would say an air-cooled motor is more dependable for a continuous duty unattended application as there is no water cooling system to fail. From an engine durability perspective I would say you should have no concerns using a TR2 for 24/7 power gen work. Those things are used for lots of very demanding applications including truck refrigeration packs. They are noisier than water cooled though.General maintenance is just oil & filter changes and visual inspection. They are tough units with excellent parts and advice backup. 
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2009, 05:20:29 PM »

Thanks Compig.  That is good to hear. 
I am picking the engine up this weekend. 

Thanks,

C.J.

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2009, 07:51:30 PM »
You would be crazy to pass up a TR2 with hours on it for that price
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

oliver90owner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2009, 11:33:20 PM »
C.J.,

You do not tell us how much power you will require on a regular basis.  It is probably much less than when you first think of a number.

You may be aware that all diesels run better when reasonably loaded.  Most of these modern sets are directly coupled, so your engine rpm is fixed to that of your generator.  You may need to consider building an indirect drive so that you can choose the engine speed/power output to best fit your needs.

Regards, RAB

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2009, 12:45:44 AM »
From what I have calculated I will need about 4-5kw with about 15 to 20% daily load of about 8 – 9kw.

If I run the engine at 1500RPMs it should develop about 14HP.  This should be able to get about 9.5kw continuous with a surge of about 11kw.  I will have to use a couple of pulleys and a belt drive to run at 1500.

Do you think 4-5kw will load it enough to prevent it from coking?

If I run it at 1800 it should develop about 10 to 11kw continuous.  I think this is too much for my normal load requirements.

Thanks,

C.J.

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2009, 01:26:49 AM »
2 HP per kw was what I have read but Gary from Diesel Electric said this engine should get a little under 10kw from 14HP.

At 1800rpms the engine is supposed to develop 17.6hp ( 8.8kw ) continuous and 19.3hp ( 9.65kw ) surge. 

At 8.8kw my normal load will be about 50%.  Maybe I should run it at 1800?

Thanks,

C.J.

TimSR2

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2009, 05:45:07 AM »
The air cooled Lister will produce a far superior standby set. No need for water, water pumps, belts, hoses, antifreeze, no fear of cracking due to a frost. You can let it sit it for 5 years and put on a battery and it will go to work. Fixed speed flyweights and springs are easily available. 

I have a Lister SR2 (pre cup, aka IDI) driving a ST5 head by belt drive, 1400 engine rpm. Yes, it is noisier than a water cooled engine but it takes 1/2 of the space, with far less maintenance. These things thrive on neglect.

 I just shut the door on the shop and I can't hear it from the house, just 30 feet away.   I can run the whole house including the oven with no problem. Test loaded with a 4800 watt construction heater it grunts a little but still has clear exhaust. The TR2 is a  modern DI engine.  Much more powerful. Go for it, but stay away from the alternate fuels or you will gump up your rings for sure.

Tim SR2

oliver90owner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2009, 08:15:30 AM »
Gary from Diesel Electric said this engine should get a little under 10kw from 14HP.

Who is he kidding?  !4 HP is less than 10 1/2kW.  He is hoping if he could run a generator at better than 95% efficiency!!

Of course, depends what 'a little under' actually means.  Some people do exaggerate.  Probably depends on what they they have on offer for sale.

Close enough 14 times 0.75  multiplied by 0.9 multiplied by 0.85 gives 8kW (for 14HP at the flywheel and running at 90% load, and less 15% for energy conversion efficiency).  OK, 8kW is a little (only 20%) under 10kW and you could nearly 9 if you load the engine 100% (not a good idea to do this continuously) and you might be allowed a certain overload for a specified time.  But in the real world 8 is the practical maximum, which is not that far from the 'rule of thuimb'.

Use an over-sized generator and the figure is likely to be lower.

Regards, RAB

btrcj

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2009, 02:36:06 PM »
Well I figured that if I got 8kw I would be very lucky.  Still that should do me just fine.

So if I oversize the alternator to a 15kw ST head the efficiency will be less then if I use a 10kw head? 
I know the mass of the head will be different but not sure what else would cause that.

I was planning to oversize the head to make sure it stayed well below max power output of the head.

Thanks,

C.J.

oliver90owner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: Lister-Petters TR2 or Changfa clone?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2009, 06:04:15 PM »
So if I oversize the alternator to a 15kw ST head the efficiency will be less then if I use a 10kw head?

Well, lets extrapolate a little excessively.  Consider running a 100kW head.  I know you wouldn't but you can see what I mean.

Running a bigger cooling fan at same speed as a smaller head, excitation current is likely different.

Manufacturers usually design for the highest efficiency at around maximum output - they expect it to be used that way.

Regards, RAB