Pulling a pulley

[oliver90owner]

Kroil.... is there a UK distributor?

The best I have come across is a 'Danco' product.

Not purchased any in recent years, but will have to shortly.

Unless they have changed the product contents, it is part of a range of very useful additives, etc.

'Record Sales'(?) used to be the distributor, but that may have changed.

Regards, RAB

[AdeV73]

Hi Ade.  Did you find a setscrew in the bottom of the hole over the key?  If you could get that out and fill the hole with Kroil or any brand of penetrating oil and let it sit while you were gone on your trip you would maybe be a little ahead of the game when you get back!  Just a thought.  Have a nice vacation!     Leland

I haven't spotted one, and a bit of welding rod used as a depth gauge seemed to suggest that there's nothing in there - but i'll check again before I go. The only penetrating oil I have is WD40 (unless 3-in-1 oil is also a penetrating oil), but I'll give it another soaking before I go

[WGB]

Lots of good advice, another good penetrant is PB Blaster if you have that in the UK
I worked in the UK couple years back, it is hard to find stuff we'rs use to in the US.
I would clean up the shaft and use a shop press with one of these on the back of the pulley:
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1A808?BaseItem=5U733

[compig]

"I worked in the UK couple years back, it is hard to find stuff we'rs use to in the US."

There's lot's of stuff from the USA that would be great to have in the UK. One companies products I discovered via ebay is Justrite. Safety cans , oily waste bins etc. Bought a load of it brand new from US clearance companies on ebay , before the shipping rates went orbital that is !!   

[rleonard]

I agree with an earlier poster.  Pulleys are cheap and available.  Instead of wasting hours on removal and risk further damage, cut it off.  Sawzall, plasma cutter, porta band, or hacksaw.  All handy tools.   

Bob

[mobile_bob]

if in doubt take it to a competent truck or heavy equipment mechanic
he will have it off for you in 5 minutes tops, and both piece will be useable when he is done.

likely if he is good at what he does he can straighten your bent shaft as well.

i have a puller suitable for pulling that thing right off, also have the carbide ball cutters to remove the
set screw, torch for heating, angle grinder to clean up the end of the shaft, etc.

with some experience and the right tools that is not a very difficult job at all.

bob g

[Doug]

Agreed.....

Find a guy like Bob says.
I don't have the tools for this work and gladly will pay for it.

And no matter how bad things get I have another guy that can subarc andrebuild the shaft if the pully and shaft had to be cut.....

DOug

[apogee_man]

I would suggest a couple of things:

First, mix up a batch of 50/50 automatic transmission fluid and acetone.  Shake well and use this as your penetrating oil.  No need to worry about importing or buying anything fancy...

http://www.smokstak.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59360&highlight=penetrating+oil

Since you have the shaft assembly out, all you need is someone with a decent press.  They can press the pulley further onto the shaft which should loosen it and allow access to remove the key.

I agree with Bob that this should be a fairly easy removal with the correct tools.  Head to either a truck shop or a machine shop and just have them do it for you. 

Will likely cost less in the end and won't take very long to do if done properly.  Hydraulics are an amazing thing...

Good luck,

Steve

[apogee_man]

One more quick note:

If you hadn't already been dousing it with oil, I would have recommended that you use water as your penetrating "oil".

Yes, water.

Think about it, water was able to get in there in the first place to rust it solid.

You might be very surprised at how good of a solvent water is if you think of it in those terms, and I can assure you, it will travel through that iron oxide like it wasn't there.

Steve

[mobile_bob]

aha!

good to see another proponent of the use of water to derust frozen parts

nature's almost perfect solvent, is especially good on rust sieze cast iron parts,

the only thing better at getting into the innards of the part is a mix of water and antifreeze, but
antifreeze mix does not dissolve rust very well at all, which got me to thinking

what does antifreeze do to water to make it seep in where water won't?
it reduces surface tension

so add a few drops of dishwashing detergent, it too will reduce the surface tension and allow
the water to seep inside much better than plain water, and still be a good rust solvent.

its worth the effort, but first get the outer end of the shafts mushroom removed

another thing which will make removal of the set screw should you be forced to drill it

take an angle grinder and polish up a flat on the cast iron pulley about the size of a nickel or dime
slowly heat the pulley and watch for the colors to run in the shiney spot, it will first turn kind of light yellow, full straw
dark straw, light blue, dark blue and then full on purple, stop there and let it cool normally

this heating will anneal the set screw so that it can be drilled out if you must to remove it.

don't try to heat the screw by itself, which is hard enough to do down in a hole, but it is real easy to
get it red hot and then the cold cast will chill the red hot screw, making it harder than hell.

just take it slow, maybe 5 minute with a decent torch watching the colors come up, the goal is full dark purple
 on the shiny spot that you ground off, (you don't apply torch heat to the shiny spot, it is just your indicator as to how
hot you are, roughly) it will be in the 650 degree F range to anneal the set screw.

too bad you don't live closer, i have a 30 ton three leg puller i haven't had a use for in nearly 25 years out in my old rollaway.
believe me, that pulley would come right off in no time with very little prep work.

pulling sprockets and pulleys off with a 100 ton portapower and a huge rose bud for heat, makes your job a walk in the park.

no way i would cut up either the shaft or the pulley, no reason why both cannot be saved to work another day (or half century)

good luck

bob g

[Doug]

I rememeber some years back I had a guy cut the shaft off brand new perfectly good electric motors and then subarc and rebuild the shafts with what was called a JP pump shaft. I made money off those because it was actualy cheaper to have the motors converted than buy actual JP shaft pump motors.

I also learned Joel ( Joe-L, he was a french guy ), could fix just aboiut any messed up shaft if I need it bad enough.

By all means get it apart but there are people out there than can still fix anything......

Doug

[nobby]

Enough good advice with regards to getting the pulley off etc so I will not add to that however some thoughts in regards to cleaning:

The danger here is that you'll encourage shorts deep in the windings that you will not be able to get out.  Motor shops do indeed steam clean with water and appropriate solvents however they then bake them to drive the moisture out.  This baking is either external in an oven or internal by passing current through the coils in a controlled manner to help dry things out. They then dip in the appropriate class insulation coating and bake again.  Also note the steam cleaning is low pressure IIRC 25 PSI or so, you do not want to drive the dirt inside the windings as this will itself contribute to the shorts and or hold the moisture in.  The caveat here also is that the older the unit the higher the risk of creating or not being able to get rid of moisture causing shorts in this process.  When having old DC equipment rebuilt I have had the odd unit not come back and one unit spent along time in the oven trying to get the moisture out.  Its a double edged sword with an old unit on the one hand you want to get rid of the dirt because in itself it encourages shorts but on the other you may very well want to clean light enough that you do not make it worse.

Cheers
Nobby

[Doug]

If you can get 2-3 meg on the insulation after cleaning I would consider that acceptable ( safe first, then just acceptable for long term use ).

Yes we used steam, but often just warm water with mild soap. The baking dry out porcess starts around 175 F and slowly rises to around 250 over a 12 hour peroid. Its important to evenly heat the machine so the moister is not trapped in a cooler deaper part as the metal and copper warms and expands. The shock of quickly heating above the boiling point can damagae the insulation.

Chemical cleaning is usualy an electrical grade solvent like PERC, we used to use some other stuff ( not carbon TET ) but it was banned .

The dip part is usualy done warm and the armature will soak in tank of xylene and electrical grade varnish for few minuts. This helps draw varnish into all the parts of the winding.

And the final bake will generaly be done at the 250 - 300 F range, but these are not rules and the shop and people doing this kind of thing often will do things to suit the specific machine and job.

Some people will not dip for exampe but may prefer to simply paint he winding in Glyptal if they feel the solvents in the varnish may attack and do more harm to the old insulation.

Another interesting observation is after wash a bake the insulation will read much lower on the hi pot than when cooled. It takes a man who understands the job the decide and guess what is the most reasonable outcome from washing drying baking dipping ect and choose the best treatment.

This is becomeing a lost skill the motor shops are dying.... 

Oh ya blowing dust out of machine should be done at 25 PSI or less and it comes with the risk of pushimg dirt deaper into a winding. Most people myslef included believe its better to avoid this and use some dust filters to clean the cooling air to prevent this dust if possible. I also believe in washing with PERC and doing these thigs cold with just a coat of Glytal if possible. Just the act of washing baking and cleaning can kill a weak winding if your unlucky

[nobby]

Excellent Doug, I was hoping somebody from the motor shop trade would fill in the gaps on my somewhat generic description.

Cheers
Nobby

[Doug]

The part that needs to be stressed is keeping the widning clean and dry first...
Not exceeding the temperature rating of the insulation...
Avoid any mechanical damage to the insulation...

Best way to look at it is like this:
An old electrical machine is a like a car and if you keep it clean and avoid things that will mar the finnish and harm the paint it will last longer.
Once things start to rust you can slow the process ...
You can reppaint it ect but the underlying problem is there forever you can never make it new again.