Author Topic: Cooling questions  (Read 13925 times)

Stan

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 04:35:31 AM »
Bye the way AdeV....Don't forget the original design on the dursley Listers with radiators, have the water going from the hot up to the radiator through a 1.5" ID fitting that is only about 6" long, into the rubber hose which is only another 6" long travelling through only 1 very elegant sweeping curve.  It then goes from the bottom of the radiator out another 1.5" rubber hose about 5" long,  into a 6" long metal fitting, again to a sweeping curve and back into the engine.

That's a pretty short passage for the water to travel through, and it's 1.5" ID and there's no real bends!  Very easy travel.  Something to remember for thermosiphon setups.
Stan

adhall

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
    • View Profile
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2009, 04:58:18 AM »
Stan:

It appears that this type of clamp is used on antique cars. Take a look at the picture on this web page:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/82955.html?1237971087

And here are some folks that sell them:

http://www.restorationstuff.com/What_s_New/Light%20Bulbs/HoseClamps.htm

I don't see 1-1/2" in the list, but maybe 1-5/8" would be close enough. The price is a bit high, unfortunately.

Best regards,
Andy Hall

JKSon 6/1, 5 kW ST Head, 1992 Dodge RAM Cummins 5.9L Turbodiesel, 2001 VW TDI 1.9L Turbodiesel, 2006 Jeep CRD Turbodiesel, Yanmar FX22D Diesel Tractor

Stan

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2009, 05:34:17 AM »
That's it Andy...THANKS!  Actually for the OD of the rubber hose it comes close to 2 3/8" so 2 13/32 would be perfect!  I knew they had to be out there somewhere. :-*
Stan

Edit for future data inclusion.  Andy...I'm now rethinking this.  The clamp from S. Cal would cost $10 but the shipping is going to be $28.  :o  difficult to justify $38 for a single clamp.
Stan
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 09:08:28 PM by Stan »

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2009, 03:10:52 PM »
AdeV
   Looking at your pics, I would be wondering if you even have enough heat transfer area to adequately remove the engine heat.

The numbers:
A 6/1 at full load has to dissipate nearly 18,000 BTU/HR from the cooling system to maintain it's cool.  From your pics, I would be surprised if there were more than 6 or 7 loops in that tanks heat transfer coil.  You said I believe that it was 22MM in diameter?  well lets be generous and call it 24.5MM.  I am going to work in inches from here on out.  24.5MM is 1" so that pipe will have a circumference of .79"  7 coils at approximatly 14" diameter is about 44" of pipe length per coil.  44" times 7 coils is 307" of pipe length.  That times the .79" of circumference is about 243 SQ/IN, or 1.69 SQ/FT of surface area.

Copper water-water heat exchangers have a heat transfer coefficient in the area of 60-80 BTU, per SQ/foot, per degree F of temp difference, per hour.  If your engine has a 195F thermostat, it is going to need say in the area of 100F returning to the engine to operate properly.  That is a mean temp of around 145F.  If you want domestic water temps of say around 120 F, that tank will probably range from 120 down to 80 at the bottom.  As a guess, If you had 100F as a mean tank temp, that is only 45F of temp difference.

So 80 BTU times 1.69 SQ/FT times 45F difference is only 6075 BTU per hour of heat transfer capacity.  That is the heat output of a 6/1 generator at about a 1KW of electrical load...  If you can get more accurate dimensions, we can refine this a bit, but I don't see it being much larger based on the pics. Even if it had twice the coils, it would only double the heat dissipation capacity using these same temp numbers.

Another question, is what are you going to do with the heat?  In order for the engine to survive, the BTU must leave the engine to maintain temperature.  By tying the tank to the engine, the same is now true of the tank.  The same ammount of BTU must leave the tank in order for it not to become heat saturated and over temp.  If too few BTU are removed, the tanks temp rises.  As it's temperature rises, less and less BTU are removed from the engine and it in turn overtemps.

Since the primary goal is to cool the engine adequately, I would reccomend that you put a radiator in the return line from the tank back to the engines lower coolant port.  By doing it this way, The hot water tank gets first crack at gathering heat from the hotest coolant.  If it cannot remove enough of the heat, the radiator can then dissipate the remaining required heat to maintain proper engine operation. A thermal switch could control the fan so it only runs when necessary to maintain temperature.

My .02

Good Luck 
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

Stan

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2009, 09:12:48 PM »
Don't take my word for it, I promised I wasn't going to do any more math for the rest of my life, and I"m probably wrong here so grab your calculator and dig out the geometry text book, but at first glance doesn't a 1" (diameter) pipe have a circumference of 3.14xxxx "?
Stan

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2009, 01:02:56 AM »

Don't take my word for it, I promised I wasn't going to do any more math for the rest of my life, and I"m probably wrong here so grab your calculator and dig out the geometry text book, but at first glance doesn't a 1" (diameter) pipe have a circumference of 3.14xxxx "?


Stan,

I was going to say that.... but the forums were down & I was off out...

Actually, the pipe is 22mm OD, which works out to about 69mm circumference, or 2.7". Using the rest of Ron's calculations (which are fine), I get a figure of 20kBTU dissipated, which is nice :)


Anyway... I ran her earlier with just the water jacket filled up (stop end on the bottom fitting, copper elbow on top), and she ran very nicely indeed :) I am most impressed, and looking forward to my first run fully plumbed up sometime next week I think.

ronmar

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1227
    • View Profile
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2009, 03:50:43 AM »
Yep, you are both right, Sorry.  I crunched those numbers on my way out the door to work this morning.  I was out on the road today, and had some time on my hands while riding in the truck, and that error popped into my head.  That .79, is the area of a 1" circle(PI times R squared), not the circumference(Dia times PI).   OOPS... 

The same issue is going to haunt you though.  Even with the apparently adequate heat transfer surface area, the same ammount of BTU ultimately must leave the tank as you are putting into it, or the delta will drop and the engine will overheat...
PS 6/1 - ST-5.

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2009, 08:51:34 AM »
Ronmar,

I agree - and you're right about adding some secondary cooling. For now, I think what I have will be adequate for testing purposes; long-term I'll have a bigger heat store (probably) and a radiator.

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2009, 12:10:44 PM »
A quick video showing the water cooling in action (because you've never seen one of those before  ::) ), and my exhaust with patent-pending connection system (a tied-up t-shirt over the joint!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1jKaomj_KA

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2009, 05:22:44 PM »
I thought you'd discovered perpetual motion for a while there !! LOL !!
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2009, 07:24:56 PM »

I thought you'd discovered perpetual motion for a while there !! LOL !!


She certainly takes an age to wind down... even before I put the decompressor in, once warmed up she turns under her own momentum for what feels like forever.

mike90045

  • Mendocino Metro
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1594
  • Mmmm BBQ
    • View Profile
    • Mikes Solar PV page
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2009, 11:29:19 PM »

She certainly takes an age to wind down... even before I put the decompressor in, once warmed up she turns under her own momentum for what feels like forever.


Sucking in crankcase oil past the rings ?

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Cooling questions
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2009, 11:43:19 PM »

Sucking in crankcase oil past the rings ?


No, she's not firing, there's just a general lack of stiffness which makes her easy to turn over. I've not got experience of any other engine to compare compression - I can pull her over compression with just a 1.5 turn run-up (when I crank her up in that video link, that's from the "edge" of the previous compression, and she fires on the first compression stroke). If I let her warm up until the water in the jacket is just too hot to put your hand in, then the momentum will keep her turning through compression for easily a minute. If I just shut the rack & decompressor at the same time (as the Start-o-Matic control would), she rotates for a good 2.5 minutes.