Author Topic: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions  (Read 21009 times)

rcavictim

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2009, 05:20:15 PM »
Bob,

Changfa makes a 30 HP 1130 engine.  Pat at altopro has imported them.
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
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mobile_bob

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2009, 05:36:30 PM »
that would certainly be a horse!

got a link to one?

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

rcavictim

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 03:06:23 AM »
that would certainly be a horse!

got a link to one?

bob g

Not yet.  ;)      ...and sorry no I don't know a url where you can see one. 
-DIY 1.5L NA VW diesel genset - 9 kW 3-phase. Co-gen, dual  fuel
- 1966, Petter PJ-1, 5 kW air cooled diesel standby lighting plant
-DIY JD175A, minimum fuel research genset.
-Changfa 1115
-6 HP Launtop air cooled diesel
-Want Lister 6/1
-Large DIY VAWT nearing completion

apogee_man

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2009, 08:04:22 PM »
My opinion is the camshaft issue is more of a legend than reality.

I too spent a considerable amount of time researching the big twins, and was unable to find hard factual information regarding camshaft failures.  I remember seeing ONE picture of one that failed.

I do think that providing oil to the far bearing is a good idea.

The concept that, because it's a twin, the camshaft is "going to fail..." is a bunch of BS as far as I'm concerned.  Take a look at any V8 auto or truck engine and you will find far higher stresses over a much longer span than the Lister ever sees during its life.  Sure, if the far bearing siezes due to no oil it might be an issue, but that is the only issue that I see.

Worst case, since the lobes are pinned on, you use a stonger shaft if you think it's necessary.

I would be VERY interested to find out how many twins have really had camshaft problems.  My gut tells me not many.

Just my $.02...

(Can you tell I HATE misinformation?)

Steve

Dail R H

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 01:33:58 AM »
   Wonder how much trouble it would be to get a machine shop to make a new shaft,and install the lobes???

apogee_man

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2009, 03:04:33 AM »
When I was considering purchasing one of the twins, I was planning on having a local camshaft shop make me one so that whatever the problem was would be rectified from the beginning.

I figured it would be stronger and we would have lift and duration information then.

I ended up finding two original Listers and that need disappeared.

I still wouldn't be afraid of the Listeroid twins though...

Just my $.02

Steve

PS - I also think the Redstone would be a possibility, but as long as one goes into the Listeroid arena with one's eyes wide open, I wouldn't be afraid of them.

JohnF13

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2009, 02:26:15 PM »
Unfortunately, the camshaft issue in the twins is real. I have had 4 twins here, a 12/2, 2 x 20/2's and a 25/2.  Three of them were from different manufacturers and all four suffered camshaft failure.  The 12/2 lasted the longest - around 2,000 hours, the 25/2 the shortest - less than 25 hours.  Typically the camshaft breaks where the cam gear pin has been driven through the shaft, but other places certainly are possible.  The reason for it is stupidly simple - when the Indians drill the holes through for the cams they do not take the time to make sure the drill bit is centred, this results in an "offset" hole, they then put the cam or gear on the shaft and whale the pin through.  This causes stress risers in the metal which eventually develop into a crack and then a complete failure. Some cams may not suffer this fate (just good luck?) others will fall apart quickly.  The problem is that you cannot see any signs externally when examining a camshaft - it's all hidden under the cams/gears.
John F
2 x 6/1 JKSON.  1 x 10/1 JKSON, 1 x 27hp Changfa, 1 x 28hp AG295, 1 genuine 1939 SOM, a couple of others in test mode and a Hercules Multu-fuel still in the box.

Tom

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2009, 09:02:34 PM »
Even if a solid cam shaft was available, you would still have to attach the gear some how and would likely still have the weak spot. Unless the shaft had a flange cast into it for mounting a gear.
Tom
2004 Ashwamegh 6/1 #217 - ST5 just over 3k hours.

Wizard

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2009, 10:32:05 PM »
Instead of a pin, use a nut and a key.  This is rountinely done on transfer gears in the FWD transmissions.

Cheers, Wizard

piperpilot3tk

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2009, 12:15:15 AM »
Quote
  I ordered my engine with a bronze idler gear and I assume that option became available because of the failure of steel gears ... is there an option for a solid camshaft ?

jens, have you opened the crankcase door and verified that you have the bronze idler installed?

One option may be to contact one of the Indian assemblers and see if they will ship you a cam shaft that has not been drilled.  You could then take the new shaft and the old cam assembly to a machine shop and have them correctly locate and drill the taper pin holes in new shaft, you could also skip the taper pins and install some close tolerance aircraft hardware if you are concearned about stresses.

apogee_man

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2009, 12:52:04 AM »
Thank you John for some real info and not legend.

Seems to me that it would be wise to either buy new lobes and better shaft material or have one made.

Certainly not reason to stay away from them if this is their only big issue.  Considering that most folks take them apart anyway, once the details of having a replacement made are worked out, i wouldn't think it would be a show stopper to simply switch them.  Should we have to?  No!  However, if it makes the twins into reliable long-term runners, then it would make sense to me to work it out...

When I was looking at buying a twin, I called our local camshaft grinder and asked if I could have a solid one made.  He felt it wouldn't be a problem as long as they could find a blank that could be ground to fit...  Seems like he quoted me $150 or so to figure out the profile and provide me with a finished product...  (memory is vague on the amount though)  However, whatever it was, it didn't seem too horrible to me...

It would have also been a way for us to get the correct lift and duration for our records.

Since I bought original Listers instead, I haven't worried about it...

Steve
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 01:12:54 AM by apogee_man »

piperpilot3tk

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2009, 06:59:40 PM »
jens, if you have a spare camshaft assembly and you are really concearned about breakage, you could just drill the taper pins out, ream the holes and instal some close tolerance fasteners such as Hiloks or aircraft grade bolts.  Doing this would eliminate the stresses on the shaft from the taper pins being driven into a hole that was not drilled perfectly on center.

piperpilot3tk

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2009, 09:44:48 PM »
Quote
Typically the camshaft breaks where the cam gear pin has been driven through the shaft, but other places certainly are possible.  The reason for it is stupidly simple - when the Indians drill the holes through for the cams they do not take the time to make sure the drill bit is centred, this results in an "offset" hole, they then put the cam or gear on the shaft and whale the pin through.  This causes stress risers in the metal which eventually develop into a crack and then a complete failure. Some cams may not suffer this fate (just good luck?) others will fall apart quickly.  The problem is that you cannot see any signs externally when examining a camshaft - it's all hidden under the cams/gears.


jens, if the above described condition is the cause of the failure, which sounds very plausible, then eliminating the stresses from the incorrectly located holes and taperpin combination should be the fix.  I am just guessing here but I would think that the material of the shaft would not be the root cause; if the material were the problem then all of the twins would have problems, not just some of them.  I looked at the camshaft on my 6/1 today and it is actually made of some pretty hard material, this would help explain why driving a tapered pin into a mis-located hole would cause the hardened steel shaft to crack.  I really dont think that the stresses of the valve train alone would cause the shaft to crack, the low RPM and low tension valve springs just dont seem like they put very much stress on the tappets and cam lobes.  The original Listers got away with this type of camshaft construction for a long time, has anyone heard of a failure on a real Lister twin?  I have lots of spare aircraft hardware and the reams for the correct installation hole diameters.  If I knew what size the hole would be after the taper is drilled out and cleaned up I could most likely put my hands on the reams and fasteners required and send them to you for free.  If you are interested and want to experiment with this then carefully center drill and remove a taper pin from your spare shaft, then let me know what the hole diameter is on the big side of the hole.   

lowspeedlife

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2009, 10:47:16 PM »
I can imagine that the hole being off center isn't great but the real problem would seem that having the taper pin violently driven into the hole (my understanding is that, like gib keys, taper pins don't need to be beaten into submission) especially without the shaft being supported from the opposite side, would be a more likley cause of this type of failure, if so the damage to the shaft is already done & replacing the fastener will likely not cure the problem if it is going to happen.
Scott R.

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BigGreen

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Re: 15Kw Gen head using Lister(oid) diesel, several questions
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2009, 09:05:12 PM »
I have a 25/2 with ~200 hours on it and am QUITE PLEASED with her. It's not a daily runner by any means though, back-up power and motor oil disposal unit.
What I like about the twin at 1000 rpm is no light flicker and stiffer hz, 62hz no load to 58hz full load of guesstimated 13Kw smoking like freight train. She can run 4.5 tons of AC and everything else in the house and shop without complaining. I thought about slowing her down to 750 - 800 rpm but I didn't want to get there to find the dreaded flicker.

I had to make a few adjustments (spill timing, valve adjustment, rocker arm alignment, take out throttle rack slack, spring) before she ran 100%.
I check the tappets before each run and they do not show any wear yet. I have not replaced the idler yet (note to self: replace idler)

I'm not saying buy one, I'm just saying I'm glad I did...

just my input  :)
Dave
More Power Ashwamegh 25/2 15kw