Author Topic: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!  (Read 11065 times)

centralmainediesel

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12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« on: April 29, 2009, 05:43:08 PM »
After removing the 12/1 electric start units from our sales list, we are pleased to make mention that we have reintroduced the engines for resale. When we received in the engines, we were displeased with the excessive vibration and refused to sell the units until we could find out what was wrong. We had sold two of our generator sets to customers who called us to complain of the problem. We ended up bringing those units back in and exchanging them for hand crank models. We worked tirelessly with Atul at Anand to solve the problem. He continued to make note of the fact that these engines were tested at their facility and did not have the vibration problems we spoke of. We re-designed our skid base and added the "cushy foot" vibration mounts that Atul recommended. What we found was two-fold. First...prior to our modifying our skid base, the engines would shake and "walk" their way across our parking lot. There was way too much flex for this powerful engine in the skid base we had been using in all of our builds. We made some changes and beefed things up where needed and now have a new skid base design that helps absorb some of the shock from this big stroker.Second,with the addition of the "cushy foot" vibration mounts, this is one of the smoothest and most impressive builds yet. While the engine has not been modified, the skid base changes we made has "quieted down" most of the vibration and the vibration mounts makes this a most pleasant unit. We have decided to continue to offer this unit as part of our product line, but will recommend (and supply the plans, if you want to build your own) the skid base design our techs came up with as well as encourage the use of rubber vibration isolators. We feel the 12/1 electric start is an impressive unit and has much to offer for various uses. Our thanks goes to Atul and his patient and understanding engineers/technicians for their help and support through all of this.....Thanks! Phil form Central Maine Diesel
« Last Edit: April 29, 2009, 09:33:01 PM by centralmainediesel »

SteveU.

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #1 on: April 29, 2009, 09:37:35 PM »
Hello Phil
I bought a manual crank 12/1 from you last summer. Can you post or direct me to photos or a video of your new skid mounting and anti- viberation mounting pads?

Thanks
SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
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John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

centralmainediesel

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2009, 02:29:51 PM »
Hi Steve.....We haven't produced a video or anything yet; we are in the middle of a busy production period with our industrial grade generators. You can view the video that Anand produced by either going to the ListerMarket place and scrolling to page 2 and checking out the topic for Powerline Single with Vibration Mounts or clicking on to this link  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqxvqwMDQPA  Our frame is similar in construction and the vibration mounts are the same ones used in the video. Net result is a quaker and shaker becomes a docile power stroking giant that runs smoothly as shown. We are impressed with the results after butting our heads against the walls trying to find a solution. With the help of Atul and Anand, we learned a valuable engineering lesson and have a skid base and anti-vibration system that we are proud to offer on our new builds.....Thanks, Phil from CMD

SteveU.

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2009, 04:04:15 PM »
Thanks Phil
Very impressive engineering accomplishment and customer service. My hats off to you all. I can now with good confidence recommend these 12/1's.
Anyone wanting a "before" view can look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXlloUwbmsU&feature=related
No, not me. But shows what an untamed 12/1 looks like. These ain't  no 6/1's!!
I at least had the sense to crouch down sideways between the flywheels of mine, hang on and ride ride it down to zero RPM after shut off on my first start experience.
Minds me of the old Harley riders motto. . . .

Regards
SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

xyzer

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2009, 05:31:55 PM »
These ain't  no 6/1's!!
Steve,
Don't think a 6/1 is a slouch !....I had a 6,000# utility tractor with the bucket parked on the frame of the 6/1 and it still tried to escape. After it was balanced it will handle a water glass the same as the Centralmain video.  The video you posted is quite tame in my opinion it is just looking for a better mounting system concrete or resilient. It has been said many times "don't start it unless you have it contained". Even I have broke that rule but now I am fully prepared. I haven't seen many Listeroids that will stay in place on a pallet or cement while running at speed and load.
Dave
Vidhata 6/1 portable
Power Solutions portable 6/1
Z482 KUBOTA

centralmainediesel

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2009, 08:29:11 PM »
Hi Steve...I love the look of fear in the operators eyes as he stood back and wasn't sure what to do next! We see that from time to time from visitors here at our shop when we start one up out in the yard. The engine always eliicits a smile, but shear terror when we offer them the opprtunity to start one up themselves! For those of us who owned old Harley or English made motorcycles and remember getting thrown over the handlebars or nasty bruises on the inside of our leg, the thought of the hand crank slapping you a multitude of times as it pounds you into the concrete is enough to cause panic. Even though this doesn't happen, the thought is always there. Gotta love these "one lungers".

wess460

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Hey! that clip was of me!
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2009, 05:58:06 PM »
I was reading along and clicked on the link that steve posted and it took me to my own video! That was surprising....
I have another one on there now, I figured I might as well record as I experiment right? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih0WhE3723c&feature=channel_page
Hey Phil, that's your 12/1 unit that I have been adding appendages to... hehehe

carlb23

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2009, 08:20:46 PM »
wayyyyyyyyyy too fast i'll bet its over 1200 Rpm. 

SteveU.

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2009, 08:40:45 PM »
Welcome Wes460
We weren't laughing believe me. Some of us have had to change shorts after an "interesting"  first start experience.
Great video and good to see you got back up into the saddle.
I was amazed how well your rubber feet worked. Your framing looks to be stiff and strong as hell.
All of my running has been on wooden mounts on dirt and now gravel. My engine was able with this resilience assistence to float first a 300,  then 800 pound mounting system up in the air. I am shooting for 2200 pounds in this next one, but still on gravel. I may need to move mine 100 feet out of the town limits onto county property so I haven't been willing to pour a concrete block yet.
I think running one on a hard surface like you and the Indian Powerline video show is keeping a lot of the ground stored bouncing back energy from accumulating.
Just realize that somewhere upwards of 800 pounds plus upward force is what you have to contain and the obvious twisting precession movement.
People bolting to 4-6-8" slabs have had bolts pulled and concrete sections crack out.
Now with your successful rubber feet, you might try first keeping the feet and holding it down with long cement anchored J bolts drilled and floating up through your frame work with compression springs on top the frames held down over the bolts. Another problem others have reported when bolted solid to an area slab and not to an isolated concrete block is a ground transmitted thumping for up to a hundred feet around.
Again thanks for the video, I 've been dithering which side to mount my gen head on. Nice to have now seen running engines both ways.

Regards
SteveU.

Guys I kinnda' 15 second "pulsed" timed him at 1000 RPM. And with his 3600 RPM gen head versus pulley ratios this looks about right. If he is running 1200RPM his electrical supplied side is going to be complaining loudly. We just don't often see 1000 RPM. S.U.

« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 08:49:56 PM by SteveU. »
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

carlb23

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2009, 12:27:14 AM »
I did mine a little differently.  My engine is not bolted directly to the floor.  The engine is bolted to the I beams which are then bolted to the 8x8 timbers with a resilient rubber pad in between. then the 8x8 are sitting on another piece of resilient rubber pad and it is not anchored to the floor.  In front, behind and on both sides are pieces of C channel bolted into the concrete.  These C channels are then bolted but not tight to the 8x8 with rubber bushings in between the C channel and the 8x8's.  The whole assembly will move back and forth about 1/4" when running but transmits very little "Thump" into the concrete floor.  If you stand on the floor next to the engine you can feel the thump.  Move 6 feet away and you can't feel anything.  My engine is in our attached garage and you can not tell it is running when you are in the house unless it is dead silent.  My refrigerator makes more noise in the house then the listeroid does.   



http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=1521

Carl

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2009, 01:17:11 AM »
The vibration looks like incompletely cancelled balacncing due to high speed more evident at 1,000 rpm vs 800 rpm or less.

I see the biggest reason for the redstone to have the counter balance shaft.

Cheers, Wizard

wess460

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 07:55:01 PM »
Wow, it's great to hear all your inputs into my experimentation, I thought I was going to have to "go it alone" , but now it feels a little more like I'm part of an age old riddle that many people are trying to solve. Thanks for the suggestions/comparisons, I appreciate them.
 Since the second video, (the dancing one) I have removed the bottom steel plate along with 4 out of 5 of the 5/8" rubber pads in each foot. I also cut off the jaw-like tabs that corralled the 5 rubber layers, as they will no longer be needed with only 1 layer of rubber. I will be trying the single pad attached to each of the 4 corners with no steel base plate beneath it this time because that seemed logical for better traction. I will see how that combo bounces, and then move on to spring experiments, or maybe a combo of the two. I work around large generators and they all seem to use springs as their mounting systems, granted that these are multiple cyllinder engines and have different dynamics than a one lunger. Like you Steve, I  am reluctant to pour a giant slab of concrete and plus I would like to house it inside my garage. There must be a way to do this, plus I enjoy the challenge. That stiff frame is the way it came from CMD. That is definately key to working out the vibration issues.
 Carlb23 had an intresting setup, rubber then beams then rubber again and not bolted too tight, perhaps all you need is to happen upon a certain combo that works with your weight, rpm, rotating mass, etc. and your all set?...
 I keep playing with the idea of a three dimentional steel box welded up solidly with your generator unit bolted ontop of and containing some sort of bladder inside it that you could fill with water to give you a massive (weight) base. it would not be as permenant, and you would still have the large mass to bolt the spring/rubber feet to. Ok, my mind is drifting now...
 I will test the rpm to see if it is actually 1000 also...

wess460

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009, 08:15:33 PM »
Jens, your solution sounds like it was pretty successful, I guess I am going for the moonshot right now, dreaming of a generator running without a gigantic (and expensive,) concrete block below it, or that I dont have to bolt down to my nice garage floor causing compression of the sand below it, causing a void, causing a crack and crooked floor like previously mentioned. I have materials around my garage that I use constantly on different projects, I am a bit of a junk collecter but it keeps costs down. When something breaks, I dont just throw it away, I study its parts for something I might want to keep, then I take it apart, throw the screws in my screw bucket, salvege any steel, etc. etc. Yeah, I'm that guy. it's a disease! But it sure comes in handy when I need a part. I will also drag home many items that have a 'free' sighn on them from the side of the road, especailly if it has good steel in it. I dragged someones old trailer home yesterday, soon to be cut up with my torches and stored in my steel pile until it gets welded into my next project. Half the fun of listeroid generators is finding ways to do things cheaply yet effectively...

wess460

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 04:19:00 AM »
Has anyone tried building a strong sturdy subframe, mounting the generator solidly as you should anyhow, add some type of vibration absorbing feet and then adding weight to it like those dirt drag trucks do? Perhaps a rack that is ready to accept plates of some kind, you would use small, strong, short travel  springs (maybe old valve springs from a junked car or truck, there are 16 in an 8 cyllinder) underneath the base at the corners (4 springs per corner), possibly attached to a steel plate with a rubber shoe, then start the beast and begin adding the objects of weight (maybe the rectangular plates off of a discarded nautalus machine) to each end trying different combinations until it settles down. It seems like the issue is to overcome the huge rotating mass of the engine by solidly bolting it to something bigger, so why not make the base itself 'bigger' (heavier)? Does that sound like it might work or have I gone a little bernaners?
 I am going to assume the engine is generally balanced well eanough for now, if I can't figure out how to settle this thing down externally, then I will begin the process of balancing the internals.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 09:16:08 PM by wess460 »

Stan

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Re: 12/1 Electric Starts are Back!!
« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2009, 04:15:01 AM »
Yes, but just ask Jens what his engine is bolted to now!  :o
Stan