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Author Topic: 12-2 dippers  (Read 17275 times)

Stan

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2006, 06:57:56 PM »
HOw about a step by step description of how to use prussian blue Ken.  I'd like to know too.
stan

akghound

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2006, 07:09:25 PM »
[quote
... it was ASSUMED everyone would know to use prussian blue and test fit and hand fettle, prussian blue WILL give you a correct and uniform clearance, without needing to measure anything.
Quote
Please explain how to do this? Would you still need to use Plastigauge?
Tks ... Ken Gardner
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GuyFawkes

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2006, 08:02:14 PM »
This is taken from an OLD manual on car repair, so the dimensions mentioned are wrong, everything else is good to go


Fitting of Connecting Rod Bearings
The fitting of the connecting rod bearings is one of the most important repair operations that can be performed on a motor.
Misalignment produces knocks, causes vibration and excessive wear of cylinder walls.



Connecting rods come with the crank pin bearings finished to size so reaming is unnecessary and they only require a little sizing or hand fit ting for a perfect surface bearing-. This being accomplished by spreading a very thin coat of Prussian blue on the crankshaft to which rod is to be fitted.
Install the connecting rod on the crankshaft or arbor of the same diameter with the piston end hanging downward, as shown in Figure 26.



Draw the nuts tight so that the bearing is snug on the shaft. Swing the rod back and forth several times and then examine the bearing for blue spots.

The blue spots, or as they are termed high spots, indicate that the bearing and the crankshaft rub at these points only.
It is then necessary to remove the high spots on the bearing with a scraper, as shown in Fig. 25.

NOTE WELL, you do this AFTER you have determined with a micrometer that the crank PIN is perfectly round with the correct radius fillets etc... or after having the crank ground.

Repeat operation until all high spots are removed, and the bearing surface is smooth, and touches the crankshaft at all points.
The tension of the rod on the shaft should be snug enough so that when the piston and rod are moved to a horizontal position they will of their own weight move to a vertical position with a slight drag.

All burrs and other obstructions must be removed from the oil holes.

When the bearing has been fitted to the shaft, lubricate it thoroughly.

After the bearing has been properly fitted, the connecting rod must be tested for alignment, which can be done in the connecting rod aligning fixture, as shown in Fig. 27.
Fasten the piston pin in the upper end of the rod and slip the 1½" bushing in the lower bearing. Pass the plug through the holes in the Fixture and through the 1½" bushing.

Tightening Loose Main Bearings
To tighten the main bearings, care should be exercised in removing an equal number of metal shims from each side of the bearing cap.



The number and thickness of shims to be removed will depend upon how loose the bearings are.
If it is found there are no shims between the main bearing caps and the crankcase, the bearing cap should be removed, locked in a vise and with a mill file remove enough metal from the face of the bearing cap to allow the proper tension. (See Fig. 28.)
Considerable care should be exercised not to get the bearings too tight, as there is danger of scoring or burning them.
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
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Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
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Tom

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2006, 09:42:35 PM »
Wow good post Guy, Thanks! FYI another use for Prussian Blue is to remove cesium 137 from the body after nuclear exposure. Let's hope that info is never needed though. 
Tom
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GuyFawkes

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2006, 09:49:27 PM »
prussian blue is largely responsible for the german industrial revolution***, and has a score of other interesting facts and uses related to it.

it was the first real chemical / artificial dye, started the whole chemistry business, which impacted the steel business, etc etc etc etc
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Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

Halfnuts

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2006, 10:58:00 PM »
Guy, I wonder about scraping the bearing.  You mentioned that this is from an old manual.  This is the first time heard of such an operation.  Is this how poured babbit bearings are fitted?  I can't imagine scraping a mirror polished machined bearing would do them any good.  What did I miss?

Halfnuts

GuyFawkes

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #21 on: April 15, 2006, 12:15:02 AM »
Guy, I wonder about scraping the bearing.  You mentioned that this is from an old manual.

yup, 1920's Star / Durant automobiles

 
Quote
This is the first time heard of such an operation.  Is this how poured babbit bearings are fitted?

aye, mind you finding someone who still has the tool illustrated would be a job of work all by itself.

Quote
I can't imagine scraping a mirror polished machined bearing would do them any good.  What did I miss?

Halfnuts

#1 you don't actually want a mirror polished bearing, you want a surface that the lubricant can adhere to

#2 I have always done the fettling job with kerosene and emery tape

#3 if that was your aim (eg a mirror polished surface) 1200 grit will do it to it, typically you get get a finish twice as fine as the grit, so with 1200 grit (which is 9 micron) you can get a 4 micron finish. eg 4/1000th of a millimetre

------------------------------

step aside here.

plain lubricated bearings ALWAYS rely on two bearings of materials of differing hardness, for a given lubricant or range of lubricants the difference in hardness is always the same, so when you "turfride" crank journals you have to fit harder shells too.

counter intuitively, it is not always the soft metal that wears away, were that the case, we would never grind journals.

plain bearings rely on the lubricant to maintain a film between the two bearing metals, so the metals never come in to contact with each other (the lubricant also has to carry heat away) but within that range the softer of the two bearing materials is expected to deform when being "run in" like a new pair of shoes.

the point being a highly polished and very smooth but out of round shell bearing will not hold a lubricant film well, and the out of roundness will become a point of metal to metal contact, wear and heat, bad things all around.

a rougher / less polished surface will hold a lubricant film well, and the lack of out of roundness will mean no metal to metal contact.

check out http://www.tribology.co.uk/services/investigate/p_bearing.htm

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

skeeter

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #22 on: April 15, 2006, 12:58:17 AM »
Now that we know what Prussian blue is and how to apply it for the correct fitting of bearings, where can I get some so I can properly put my machine back together. Is it as simple as going to my local aitomotive store or machining supply shop, or do I have to special order some.

Skeeterscooter
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dkwflight

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Prussian blue
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2006, 03:02:54 AM »
Hi I bought some from an artist supply store...Oil paint, dilute with alchohol. Paint on the part with a swab. Quite abit of alchohol will give a thin film when dried. Alow to dry before fitting the parts together.
The old time machinery scrapers were made to suit to job by the person doing the job at hand.
I found a book on overhauling old lathes and other machine shop equipment that discribed the process for lathe beds etc.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

dkwflight

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2006, 03:49:01 AM »
Hi Again
I've been thinking about a 1953 Chevrolet pickup truck I learned to drive, Way back. It had splash lube cups on the rods. They were parallel to the crank! That engine maintained about 30 psi. The crank was drilled and the oil would come up to the rockers and the rest of the engine. Dad had a bypass filter mounted on the engine. That truck would not crank on cold mornings. six volt starter. We always parked on a hump in the drive way so we could coast it down hill. It took a long roll down the hill to start. 30 weight oil in engine and 90 in the trans. That truck did a lot of work includeing one trip pulling a 50' house trailer about 100 mi.
Dennis
28/2 powersolutions JKSon -20k gen head
Still in devlopment for 24/7 operation, 77 hours running time

kpgv

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #25 on: April 15, 2006, 05:08:58 AM »
Hey Dennis,

I had some old "dip-n-splash" 216" and 235" Chevys, and worked on them a little:
The oil pump oiled the mains, cam bearings, and the rocker shaft, and delivered oil to troughs to allow the dippers to oil the rods.
The system worked well, although by today's standards, a bit arcane. "Arcane" might be a descriptive for "Lister(oid)".


Kevin
 



solarguy

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #26 on: April 15, 2006, 04:53:36 PM »
For those interested in obtaining Prussian blue (at least in the US, maybe over the pond too) here's a link where you could order it:

http://www.midwayautosupply.com/detailedproductdescription.asp?9421

If you have a GOOD auto parts store, here's the brand and part number:

Permatex PTX-80038 non-drying prussian blue

My good store had it for five bucks, and my discount national brand store just looked perplexed when I inquired.  They did not have it and couldn't get it.

Good luck and have fun!

troy

skeeter

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2006, 01:03:42 PM »
Thanks to all who have contributed to this posting. I often notice that the asking of a single question sometimes reveals answers to questions I have not even considered. This has been one of those cases. Thanks again.

Skeeterscooter
PS 12/2 & 7.5kw ST Head
195 deg. F T-Stats
Motorguard Bypass Filter
xyzer's Dippers
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GuyFawkes

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2006, 01:36:18 PM »
perhaps it should be said that prussian blue while itself is non toxic (I wouldn't shove four teaspoonfuls in a cup of coffee and drink it though) and quite safe to handle with bare skin, it does contain ions of cyanide, so if you pour an acid over it, such as battery acid, you will release hydrogen cyanide gas, which is extremely toxic.

so use and store prussian blue anywhere you like, but not near acids.

acids you might encounter in the shop are

battery acid - obvious one

phosphoric acid - major ingredient in "de-rust" chemicals that convert rust to "black" iron

oxalic acid - rust treatments, bleaches, wood treatments

old fashioned "blueprints" were prussian blue, mix it with meths and you have those wonderful smelling faintly purple duplicating machines they used to use in schools, so it isn't dangerous, per se, but it is a potential ingredient in poisonous reactions.

lighting up "easy start" blow torch style with a zippo is fun too, unless it is cold and you have condensing surfaces like glass windows, then you see a very very very poisonous white vapour heavier than air coming off the windows, one whiff of that and you are dependent upon someone else to drag you away, and hope they don't breathe while doing it.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

solarguy

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Re: 12-2 dippers
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2006, 06:10:22 PM »
Come on Guy!

You're spoiling my chances to make next year's Darwin Awards!  Excuse me while I go mix up some shock sensitive propellant...

Finest regards,

troy