'The Obama Deception' A Documentary film by Alex Jones.

[ronmar]

It is a simple answer Doug.  You make more, they take more...

[mobile_bob]

my oldest daughter now 33 (wow, how time flies) used to bring an orange to me when she was little
and ask me to peel it for her,, of course as a good dad i would do just that,, but

after doing so, i would take about 1/3 of it and pop it in my mouth, to her horror and dismay,
she would raise heck with me and i would tell her bluntly "TAXES"

then the day came she got her first job, it was for 4 dollars and hour, and she figured that 4 dollars
x 40 hours = 160 dollars!! wow!
(i never said a word)

pay day came and she received not 160 dollars of course but something on the order of 140 bucks and change

she came to me mad as a wet hen, she had been robbed by her employer,, the bastards!! 

after she had winded herself, i calmly stated

" will you peel your daddy and orange?"

the light went off in her head! as she screamed "TAXES"!!!!

that was the day my little girl became an extreme right wing conservative republican, anti government, anti taxes
and very independant and self sufficient.

of course i am a proud daddy!! 

now my attitude might well be somewhat different had my adult experience been different, surely if i had been raised in
a union family, hard core democrat, i surely would be looking for the government to pay for me from cradle to grave, but

thankfully that was not my experience, i was raised to work, never applied for a union job even though i had several opportunities to do
so, i just couldn't get it straight in my head how seniority is the name of the game, and not what you can do or what you know.

i chose a different path, i chose to work non union and when i found my employers to be either too greedy (in my imagination)
too stupid (again in my way of thinking) or somehow figured i could do it better or make more money, i decided to tell the boss to stuff
it and go into business for myself. so yes i am one of those filthy rich business owners you all hear about everyday (and if you believe that, i got some 6/1 listeroids that produce 60hp on the fuel of a 3/1, no sand, and can run for 10 million hours,, blah blah blah),
the reality is you trade one boss for many (your customers), learn all about paying all sorts of taxes and learn specifically where all those
tax dollars come from and go to.

i am getting older and slower, have bad back issues, but
i will still put my wrenches up against any union truck mechanic and work his ass under the table
not because i am smarter, better, faster, but when i go to work i go to work, not take breaks, sick leave, 40 friggin holidays,
go on strike, bitch about that is not my job, have to deal with some union rep that has never held a wrench,
i could go on, but i think you get my drift.

it just pisses me off no end to hear a union worker spouting off about being so much more productive than his forefathers were
25, 50, 75 or more years ago,, its just bullshit of the first order. those old men worked their asses off, and built the unions that these
fat ass, slouchy, overpaid and underworked characters are taking advantage of today.

i can't imagine being a union worker coming from a union family, making such comments in front of their dads and grandpa's, how disrepectful and rude!

i can't imagine telling my dad "hey Pop, did you know we are 2 or 3 times more productive as workers than you ever were!"

my dad is getting on in years, but i suspect after making that sort of statement i might very well find myself waking up seeing stars
laying flat on my back on the floor with him standing over me, smiling
"ya? who's more productive now?"

maybe my attitude stems from being on both sides of the fence, been an employee of several bosses, some good, some no so good,
owned and co-owned several businesses, had employee's and made payroll, made a lot of money and paid lots of taxes.

so as far as i am concerned if a megacorp CEO makes 100 million a year in wages and compensation, more power to him!

and now the federal government has no right to tell any corporation how they are going to compensate their CEO's, unless
they have bailed them out with "our" tax money to the tune of billions of dollars,, but
if there are corporations that took no bail out money, the fed has no right telling those companies anything about compensation
of the managment.

thats the way i see it, that is my reality, and i accept it is not the reality shared by all

and lastly
way back in the earlier posts in this topic  i was asked something to the effect

"are you happy that 4000 of our soldiers have died in this war?"

no i am not happy that anyone should die, i particularly am not happy about those that died on 911

also have you looked at  actuarial (sp) tables for the demographic of the majority of those 4000 soldiers?

would it surprise you to know that in the same time frame nearly twice would have died here in the states a civilians
in auto accidents, bar fights, gun accidents, and the plethora of stupid shit that young guys do because they think they
are bullet proof or don't think first (which is generally the case)

actually these soldiers are safer in iraq and afganistan than they are as civilians here in the states!

bob g

[Stan]

Bob I am very glad for you that you have never worked in an environment where your boss flagrently favoured his nephew over you. 

I'm glad that you have never been forced with a "wink wink, nod nod" suggestion to work unpaid overtime, while your family was waiting for you at home. 

I'm glad that you've never been "asked" to work in unsafe, dangerous places with few or no safety equipment.

I'm also glad that you've never been told face to face, "if you don't do these things you might not have a job tomorrow".

I could go on and on.  Do some research on the newspaper workers in the early 1900's, and don't say that sort of thing can't
happen anymore, it does.  Physical and sexual exploitation by unscrupulous bosses is but one outcome of the "for profit at any cost" system.

I'm glad that you have worked for great bosses all your life.  If I had, I too would figure that unions wouldn't be necessary.  Unfortunately though,
when you find out that you are working for Ghengis Khan, you can only find strength in numbers.  That's what unions are all about.
Stan

[LowGear]

Hi Bob,

Both you and your daughter are welcome to continue using the roads that my taxes helped build.  I too find cross dragging so much easier when I have a roadway to use.

Nor am I consistently comfortable with the union answer but some of our brothers and sisters don't always cut and run when things get tough.  They band together and take on the common adversary.  They sometimes win through personal sacrifice and the synergy of their mutual effort.  As a loner myself, I still admire and appreciate their accomplishments.

Casey

[lowspeedlife]

Scott...Are you forgetting sunday dec 7th 1941.  Heck I'm a Canadian and even I remember all about that!  Even if you aren't old enough to have been aware at the time you can't have slept through that much school down there in the US 
Stan

 Yes, Stan I fully remember the "day that will live in infamy" , what I didn't know was that the Japanese were left wing liberal demacrats, !!

[mobile_bob]

Stan:

for the life of me i cannot understand how you arrived at your conclusions that i have never worked for
a bad boss, been abused or exploited, quite the contrary, but you missed the point

the point being, we are not 2 or more time more productive than our forefathers were, and to assert that is just
a slap in their face and union propaganda.

working for assholes drove me to be the best i could be at what i do, and apparently it worked
since 1978 every shop i worked for, i made at least 50% more than the next best mechanic in the shop

not because of some wierd ass seniority thing, but because i could outwork those less determined, so...

Casey:

making more money means?

i paid proportionally more taxes than my contemporaries, and after become self employed i pay a hell of a lot more taxes
than my contemporaries, to yes i will use the hiways and streets thank you very much.

believe what you wanna believe, i don't care

but don't expect me to love up on this obama administration, it ain't gonna happen!



bob g

[LowGear]

Hi Scott R.,

Your comment brought a real smile to my face.  I immediately thought of how lucky we were to be being led by that right wing conservative - Roosevelt.  I wonder if Obama will make it three terms?  (yes, i know)

Bob,

The "make more" comment wasn't mine although making less is a prescription that I often recommend to those afflicted with the “My taxes are bigger than your taxes – poor me” syndrome.  A slightly different way of measuring tax load is how much of an impact the tax burden is making on the payers life style. 

Friends, Romans, Countrymen,

Have you considered the paying of taxes as a real world IQ test in the socialist experiment known as “Government”?  ALL governments are a form of socialism at one level or another.  Paying estate taxes is an absolute test for multi-generational damaged DNA.  Brothers and sisters; Get those estates laid out on paper Monday morning, first thing.

Casey

[Stan]

Actually Bob, the Japanese government at the time was a monarchy with some fascist overtones.

The one thing that bothers me about Obama (not that he's my president but we are, after all sleeping with an elephant up here in Canada) is that he wants things to go back the way they were.  It's been pretty much proven that the greed driven, for profit economy doesn't work.  You can't keep growing forever, I dont care if you are a tomato or an economy.  There has to be a fundamental change in the way we do things.  The "I want it now so I'll just borrow money and damn the consequences" mentality (very closely related to greed) hasn't worked.  That, plus when you consider all the other things happening now such as peak oil, climate change, drastic water shortages worldwide, significant new global pandemics such as aids, sars, etc. really screams clusterf*ck in a big way.

I'd really rather you guys had elected a president that would look at the way things have been (not)working, and change things for the better.  One suggestion is to bring back the trains!  Much more efficient transportation method as most of the rest of the world is finding out.  Even here in Canada we are still busy screwing the railroads and closing down entire rail lines.  Astounding ignorance and short sightedness.
Stan

[lowspeedlife]

Hi Scott R.,

Your comment brought a real smile to my face.  I immediately thought of how lucky we were to be being led by that right wing conservative - Roosevelt.  I wonder if Obama will make it three terms?  (yes, i know)

F.D.Rooesvelt a conservative??? better be carefull who hears you say that, you might get your ACLU membership card taken away !!
You miss understand Casey, See I coudn't figure out how he thought I could blame the liberals for Pearl Harbor I thought the japanese must be the libs in this case! But No! I knew in my heart that FDR was the lib so who could the japs be? That's right they were the Imperial Facsists, There only a littlle farther down on the scale.
What's really interesting that you brought up FDR, wonder what he would think of GW Bush's complaint from the left, terrorist interogations & water boarding? That is him being the guy that sent 110,000 people to "war relocation camps" Most, about 70 % of these people american citizens of japanese desent. HMM.. some might call this... "torture" ??

have you considered the paying of taxes as a real world IQ test in the socialist experiment known as “Government”?  ALL governments are a form of socialism at one level or another.  Paying estate taxes is an absolute test for multi-generational damaged DNA.  Brothers and sisters; Get those estates laid out on paper Monday morning, first thing.

Casey

Why should paying taxes be so any way, A flat tax would fix that pretty fast. Are governments socialist? certainly, that's why they need to be severly controlled & why the allowed actions of the us govt. were spelled out in the first 8 amendments of the Constitution.

"multi-generational damaged DNA" I hope you aren't referring to those of us from appalachia, I handled all of my late fathers estate, took me some time but i did it. the sad thing about that is families who have all worked a family farm, will loose that farm because they can't pay the taxes to inherit the family buisiness.

[LowGear]

Hi Scott,

I think we’re communicating pretty good (well?).  Both of my parents were "Hills” decent.  I’m among the first in our double helix group to be edjemacated much past the eighth grade.

People that loose stuff as in paying estate taxes have flunked the class.  There is no reason to pay this tax.  If the Kennedy’s don’t pay it why should anyone else?  Challenged DNA?  If the Buffett kids aren’t paying taxes why should we?  Polly Parrott  see – Polly do.  You’ve got  your roadmap so why are you still hanging out in Looserville?

Aloha Stan,

All royal families are fascists!  It’s the twin sister of absolute power.  Or as we might say in Latin “Shitus no stinkous”.

To us all:

I bid you good spirits and long memories on the weekend reserved for those that have paid the ultimate price of governments.

Casey

[Stan]

Ah yes...this weekend is your guyses May holiday.  Ours was last weekend.  We slaughtered quite a few of our brethern and sisterhood on the highways and waterways.  One way to pare down the population, make more holidays.
Stan

[JohnF13]

Short and sweet:

Government bad, individual effort good.  And as far as I'm concerned, unions are just another form of government, they tax the worker and give very little in return.

[Stan]

Generally you're right John.  However some governments are good, they have to be or we'd all be dead.  I used to hear my students (I taught the deliquents) bitching and complaining about being hasselled by the police and this stupid law and that stupid law.  As you say, I used to have to keep it real simple. 

I told them it was like being on a desert island.  As long as you are there by yourself, there's no need for rules or laws of any kind.  The instant someone else gets washed up on your desert island however, that's when the rules have to start.  Otherwise it's the old  "who has the biggest club" rule and that most often aint fair.  That's when you need your union backing you up. 
Stan

[mobile_bob]

Stan:

you amaze me!

you were or are a school teacher?

teachers have a union, and somehow that is to equate to coal mining somehow?

certainly unions had there place, back when a company could basically own you and your family
right down to the house you lived in (company house), groceries you ate (company grocery store), and company
education of your kids, (company schools),,, there was a real need for unions then.

somehow the pendulum got to swinging hard to the left, and there were very wide spread abuses as well.

perhaps you could enlighten me as to the need for a teachers union? how does a union protect a teacher?
and from what?

just not sure there is as much of a need for unions as there once was?
and i cannot see a need for a teachers union, personally.

about 15 years ago, they tore down st pats parochial school, back in its prime it was staffed by nuns
one nun would handle a class size which averaged 75 kids, yet somehow they managed to teach every last
one of them how to read, write, and do arithmetic, along with sundry other subjects like geography, history etc.

the only ones i remember hearing about complaining were the obnoxious students that were summarily beaten into submission
by a scrappy nun and her ruler.

as opposed to today, where the average class size was for a time being driven down to around 18, where 1/4 of the students never
graduate highschool, and another quarter cannot read or write to a 6th grade level, and every frigging 2 weeks they have to have a teachers in service day to do whatever they do?

and all we hear about is how underpaid and overworked they are?

much like a union shop, the ones complaining the most are doing the least work anyway, those that are doing most of the work, and carrying
the other complainers on their backs are too busy working to complain,, and god bless em for doing so!

now in defense of good teachers, god bless every last one of you!  we all love you and you are "not" paid enough!

now for the vast majority of teachers, quit bitching and get to work, or quit and go sell shoes or something that makes you happy!
(i know there are not many union shoe sales jobs available)

on to another group, union mechanics, just to make thing fair 

i have told this story before, and if you have heard it before don't read further.

back in the late 80's while working for navistar i got called out to seatac airport to work on a 747 toter, the low profile tractor
that tows the 747 across the tarmac and to/from the hangers.

it was a panam unit so i got to get into panam's shop

iirc there were 15-17 mechanics on staff there, all union all making about twice the wages of a non union shop, let alone benefits

i was there for a week doing warrantee repairs on an engine sold by navistar
during that week they, for the first half (monday thru wednesday) all of them sat in the breakroom playing cards
i needed some help and the lead guy appointed one to help me, and i thought he was going to cry...
he disappeared so i asked for another guy, and got one
i asked him to drain the coolant while i worked on disconnecting the upper components
after a half hour and hearing no water draining i looked over the side and there were two feet sticking out
so i called to him, and go no answer,,climbed down and found him fast asleep!

i grabbed him by the ankles and pulled him out,, sent him back to play cards...
i finally asked how many flights they had per week, and was told "one" on friday from london
so i asked how  many mechanics does it take to service a 747, and was told 3-4 men,, hmmm

didn't take long to calculate that one flight per week, and approx 16 mechanics on staff of which 4 would be assigned to
service the plane each week!! wow what a job!

i asked the lead man, what gives?  union!  union contract states they cannot layoff, move or transfer any mechanics!

well friday finally came, and the fight was on, i never saw grown men bitching and even a couple in tears because they
were assigned to service the plane. "i did it last week" , "joe hasn't done one in a month" and all sorts of other 3rd grade bitching

fore godsakes, after a week of playing cards i would have been begging to service the airplane, a forklift or a friggin toilet!

no small wonder that panam went bankrupt and never came out of it! a once proud airline that made lots of mistakes, took government
money/grants etc, and was hamstrung by union labor to the point that there was no way to keep the birds in the air.

chrysler is next on that list, along with GM if they are not really careful.

they will find that with government aid comes government strings the size of drawbridge cables going to the pits of hell.

IH went through all this years ago, with union retiree benefits that just about sucked the company under, a company that once
had over 85% market share in class 8 trucks is now a faint shaddow of it former self, but they survived and presumably most of those
union retiree's are dead now and IH now known as Navistar looks to be finally after 30 years of decline on the road to recovery,,, just in time
for the EPA insanity to overburden them and suck the life out of them again.

there has got to be an answer somewhere between union and non union when it comes to most industries.

i would agree unions are probably needed for coal miners, and certain other insanely dangerous occupations, but
i see no real need for unions for the vast majority of industry.

thats my opinion, likely not shared by liberal democrat union workers, and thats ok
i got my opinion and as such i am prepared to accept that others have the right to an opposing opinion.

(even if i believe to my core that you are wrong)



bob g

[Stan]

Actually Bob I'm retired ( and thank all the gods there ever were every waking moment).  Our provinces teachers (there's tens of thousands of them) are all governed by about 50 or so school boards.  Every board is controlled and run by a superintendent.  Those superintendents all know each other, and meet several times per year to discuss issues so if you piss off one of them, and are fired (they need all of 5 minutes notice to fire you and most firings are political, not educational related) you will never work in the province again.  Not a nice scenario.

We didn't have a union until the mid 80's (we had a toothless "federation") when a very conservative gov't decided that we would be easier to control from the provincial capital.  Boy were they ever wrong.

We still dont have the right to strike except on a very few minor issues (can't strike over anything relating to money, like salaries, class sizes [cause they cost more if smaller]) etc.  That leaves not too much clout, still more than we had.

I've walked the picket line a couple of times in my career for a few days each, but there has never been a teacher's strike in this province that didn't relate directly to the quality of learning going on in the classroom.

NO you can't teach large numbers of kids any where near as effectively as you can teach small numbers of kids.  As a matter of fact, the optimum class size for maximum learning has been known for a couple of thousand years (since Aristotles time) and it's around a dozen kids.  Exactly what the most expensive private school class sizes are (funny about that?)

One of the reasons I retired early on a partial pension is illustrated by the following anecdote repeated thousands of times a day.  In the early 70's I phoned a parent of a kid who was whispering in class and politely asked for their help in curbing this behaviour.  The next day the kid came to school, and apologized to me and was an angel from then on.  A few years ago I stopped a kid from kicking a much smaller kid's head while he was lying semi conscious on the floor after he had been beaten up by a gang of his friends.  He was carted away by the police who promptly released him into the care of his "parents".  I phone home to see what I could do to help this kid figure out what he'd done wrong and how not to do it again.  I was screamed at, accused of ruining their child, and threatened with physical violence.

One more quick one...  My principal one day picked up the phone in the staff room when it rang and talked to a parent who's kid had lost his toque (tight knitted cap designed to keep the head warm way up here in the North).  After listening to this parent for a long time, obviously being insulted, and yelled at the whole time he said to him " Listen, do you want my job?  Well you can have it but just remember if you take it you have to deal with people like yourself,  hello?  hello?.

Until we can figure out how to instill in parents, that they have to love and treat their children with respect and inculcate that into the children themselves, long before they come to school, and until we can figure out how to convince people to elect governments to understand that our children are our future and put the same amount of resources into their learning that they put into military spending, our education systems will fail.  When they fail, our children fail to grow up being honest, earnest, hard working citizens with respect for each other, skills to help them succeed at whatever they want to do, and the common sense to treat their children in a similar manner.

Stan