OLD STYLE LISTER ENGINES

[Fred]

Are there any owners of the 100000 hr old style lister engine on the forum?  If so would they please step up to the plate and give us a report.  I would like to have one but I would like to see what other owners that have them think of them and if  there has been any problems with them. They are a premium engine and command a premium price but before I decide to get one I sure would like to hear from the present owners and how many trouble free hours they may have on theirs.

[oliver90owner]

Fred,

There is an unsustantiated report of a very high hour Lister engine on the lister CS owners forum.  You may want to check that one out.  Nothing to do with osl, of course.  Anecdotal reports suggest that some CS's have had very high-hour lifetimes.  These would be 'out of the crate' genuine Listers probably.

That said, there must be the possibility of these engines lasting many many thousands of hours with appropriate maintenance and servicing.  That would, I would think, include regular replacement and/or refurbishment of some of the moving parts.

Original unused Listers are now few and far between, as they have been out of production for over 20 years.  I do not believe a Listeroid would be likely to run as long (trouble-free) as an original might have done - unless it had a lot of time spent on it.  Most Listers would not run trouble-free for that length of time either.

I personally (my opinion, of course) don't believe a word of it but might be persuaded if the documented, and fully sustantiated, evidence was available.  I am talking here of actual examples, not a computer program providing the 'evidence' from the inputted data.

There are always exceptions to a rule (well, often anyway) but I doubt anyone would expect engines to last that long.  I think if you read the claims very carefully, you could expect it to fail and expect it to be repaired free of charge - but only if it was proven to be operated in a certain way all its operating life.  Those extra costs would likely be more than purchasing more than one engine for any particular duty.

Finally what is the guarantee worth? Perhaps 20 years down the line.

In my opinion it is unsubstantiated sales hype, but I could be persuaded otherwise.  I am waiting, like a lot of others to see any hard evidence that every one, or any one, engine would actually last that long any better than a good example operated in a similar ideal way.

Regards, RAB

[Fred]

I realize original listers are unavailable new or in like new used condition.  Once in a while someone will come across the find of a lifetime and locate one stored away in a shed or barn. I would love to be that lucky person.

The next best thing would be a greatly improved lister copy (listeroid) with all the bugs worked out and improvements made to make it last and operate without problems for thousands and thousands of hours.

I'm just trying to do my homework before I decide to buy one, surely someone out there has an engine from old style listers to submit a good evaluation.  Are there any other forums devoted to the listeroid engines?


I don't know if its just sales hype or not, thats what I'm tying find out.
                                                                                                         FRED

[Tom]

Fred,

Welcome, use the search and then read it and weep. Or rejoice that you haven't sent Willie your hard earned $$ yet.

Tom

[AdeV73]

I don't know if its just sales hype or not, thats what I'm tying find out.

100,000 hours is likely to be sales hype. 100,000 hours at 600rpm is 3.6 billion revolutions. That's nearly 11 & 1/2 years running non-stop - or nearly 23 years running 12hrs day, 7 days/week, 52 weeks/year. I'm not even sure anyone's been making Listeroids for 20 years...

Now, an original 30's Lister CS? Maybe... if it were still in use today, that's an average of about 3 & 1/2 hours/day (every single day, for 80 years....) Spare parts are still available, but it'd be a bit like your Grandfather's yard brush (had it for 60 years, it's had 3 new handles and 6 new heads...), chances are the crank case would be about the only original bit left.

In short: It's not impossible, but it's not very likely either... IMHO.

[JohnF13]

Well boyz und girlz;

I have a Listeroid here with over 24,000 hours on it. It is a 6/1 and it certainly isn't a "Willem" product.  However, to get it to that "age", I have replaced a LOT of parts - injector, injector pump (these were later rebuilt) , camshaft, idler gear, big end bearings and the head - although that last one is pretty immaterial as I always have a spare "clean" head around and just change them out as they need de-coking.  I guess what I am saying is that yes, it is possible to have a high-hour engine, but it certainly isn't free, nor is it without intervention.

What I would like is for Willem to send me one of his 100,000 hour engines and I will pay him full price at the completion of the hour claim - assuming, of course, that I have not had to do any repairs......

Now, those of you with a "Willem" engine, step up and tell us you tale - according to him, he must have hundreds of those engines out there.    

[AdeV73]

For info... http://www.oldstylelisters.com/wcaengines.html

Willem is claiming:

Update, March 25, 2009: The engine has been seriously upgraded so I will be updating this page.

W. C. Andree Engines are my most advanced, most powerful and longest lasting Listeroid style engines in the world. Each engine has a minimum life span of 100,000 hours and can operate 24/7 non-stop for as long as needed. There is no other engine like this in the world.

W. C. Andree Engines are only sold by Old Style Listers, LLC.

W. C. Andree Engines can only be used with Veggie oil for fuel.

A W. C. Andree single cylinder engine can product 24 Hp, and the double cylinder engine 48 Hp!

W. C. Andree engines are designed for serious 24/7 working conditions like construction sites, businesses, hospitals, government buildings and etc.

I will post more information when I have more time available

Specifically, this claim: "Each engine has a minimum life span of 100,000 hours and can operate 24/7 non-stop for as long as needed."

Do you have the equivalent of the UK's Advertising Standards Authority to stomp on false advertising? Because sure as eggs is eggs, he simply can't back that claim up... And 24hp/cyl? What's this thing made of, unobtanium? Maybe that's why I can't get any (unobtainum, that is). 

[lowspeedlife]

Hi Fred, OSL was the 2nd web site i found on listeroids, the first being Utterpower. over the years Willem has gone from warranting every thing to nearly nothing, gone out of business & come back three of four times & what ever type of engine he's selling at the time is always the best. For the price he's charging you could buy three of anyone else's engine plus spares. I have an Omega engine, the type he sells/praises in his advertising & i will be very surprised if when i take it apart it is half as good as he claims. please note on his site that for you to get  warranty on your engine you must return it to OSL, for me that would mean shipping it from the eastern U.S. to Centrailia Washington & then back to the east coast, 1200 lbs, 6000 miles. That would prevent me from getting any warranty support at all. also note on his website that they have sold all they can for this year & will not be taking orders again until 2010. Oh, & you can be assured that he will see these posts since he checks the forum here occasionally, we know this because a few months back someone posted a link to a site that has old websites on it. I was able, as others did, to look back thru his old websites, this was nothing really interesting as i had seen them before, the interesting thing was within a few days, access to those sites was eliminated. there are several threads here on the forum about OSL. use the search feature to locate them, some good reading if you have the time.
 100,000 hour engines? I think i would put them in the catagory with Colorado ocean front property or Arizona swamp land.
 Good luck on your search.


         SR.

[lowspeedlife]

Forgot to mention that in another thread in this section of the forum you can find referances to the "redstone" engines. I think I would buy one of them from JohnF13 or Joel Koch long before I purchased anything from OSL. I think the redstone engines look pretty good even though they are a fairly new design, they allredy have pressure lubrication, electric starters, alternators, 14 quart oil capacity, run from 1000 to 1500 rpm & make up to 24HP.


     SR.

[Doug]

You just can't tell whats good or bad untill you have one or better still several people who have no connection to the vender report back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG3ExHB133k

[oliver90owner]

You just can't tell whats good or bad untill you have one or better still several people who have no connection to the vender report back

Very good advice........but don't hold your breath while waiting   Do wait and don't buy one until you have the reports is my advice.

In my earlier post I was just trying to be as diplomatic as possible.  It was difficult for me, but I thought I was more than fair towards him.

Putting posts on, in one screen name, and then replying to your own post with another game has been reported too.  Not seen it myself.

I think by now you will understand that those reports are very unlikely ever to materialise.  No response does not mean there are no engines out there.  Most purchasers would probably not want it known how they were so easily persuaded to part company with their hard earned cash and have since found out the reality of the situation. Read _{the small print}.

Regards, RAB

[mobile_bob]

my needs would dictate a run time that would average about 2 hours per day
so a 100k engine would last me? hmmm

about a hundred and thirty six years!

so in my case the engine would have rotted away via corrosion, rust, electrolysis or something
in that time, hell that would require my great grandkids to handle any warranty issues?

last time i looked at his product, and the rather princely sum of money he wanted
i figured i could buy a half container load of 195 changfa's from an importer (factoring in his retail price, albeit
a bit of a discount for a bulk buy) and likely my great grandkids would have most all of crates left unopened to sell
on the antiques road show 136 years from now, or

i could buiild a 6/1 myself, and hire out the spec work to qualified and properly equipped machine shops
and have some peace of mind knowing the quality of the build.

what does he want for a 6/1 now? or a 24/2?

i bet one could buy 3 of the redstones for one of his 24/2 engine's, unless he is really proud of his engine's
in which case you might be able to get 4 redstones.

and i got a hundred bucks says the redstone outlives the osl 24/2, leaving you with 2 or 3 redstones for the greatgrandkids
to lump on down to the roadshow.

think long and hard before you part with your money, once gone it is gone, and that warranty might not work out so well, time
you start having to ship back and forth, wait for parts and be down without an engine.

and who knows how long any supplier is going to be around to support a product these days, i wouldn't bet on gm,ford or chysler
most days, and i damn sure wouldn't bet on osl being around to even sell me parts much less warranty anything.

bob g

[compig]

That sort of warranty gig has been played on soooo many products over the years !! Basically , vendors can claim whatever they like because no one would ever be able to prove otherwise. Should someone have a claim , a vendor would just reject on the grounds that the product had been abused or incorrectly used within the terms of the warranty !!  The ultimate get out clause is that this joker won't even be around anyway when warranty claims became likely !!

[Oilengines]

One of the reasons that Lister engines lasted so long was the basic quality of the parts, the machining and the assembly. I remain very sceptical about Taper Roller Bearings (TRB) in diesel engines, especially given the pre-load required for a decent bearing life, plus maintaining that preload over an operating cycle.

I doubt that there are any genuine Listers with 100000 hours on their clocks in original condition, and if you look at the recomnmended oil change periods for a 5/1 or derivative, you'd be using up a LOT of oil on that time.

Where Lister was satisfied with 6hp or 8hp out of their singles, we are now up to 15hp (?) from a single Listeroid, albeit a larger capacity engine. I think that the original Lister design objective was simplicity and reliability before horsepower, giving relatively lightly loaded bearings and parts that just lasted, even with minimum maintenance.

Pare

[compig]

Thoroughly engineered under-stressed mechanicals were the secret of the ORIGINAL Rolls Royce cars. The downside is manufacturing cost -V-performance. Advertising and marketing insist on the most powerful , fastest etc in class , reducing the priority of reliability and durability. Ultimately , how many average people think a phrase like "my car will last 500,000 miles before I need another" is impressive or sexy ??!!  The virtues of the Victorian era have disappeared and as subsequent generations become ever more distant from that time they have less & less expectation of those qualities. The mantra of the Victorian generation engineer would have been Reliability , Durability , Quality and cost effectiveness. Customers then expected nothing less than a lifetime of service from their purchases and they got it !!  Obviously labour was cheaper then but people didn't need as much money as they didn't have a 'lifestyle' to fund !!  Admittedly now we have better metallurgy , design and manufacturing methods that minimise the need for over engineering , but those advantages are not often utilised to achieve better quality etc but to maximise margins and fuel built in obsolescence. The global market ( Yuck !!) means that everything is hammered out to the lowest labour cost philosophy and we all end up with junk that is just recycled as the the next must have thing comes around every 6 months. Stop the world , I wanna get off !!