The Redstone Diesel project

[apogee_man]

"From what I can see it looks like the engines we got in are from two entirely different builds - some are clean as whistles and the others, well, not so much."

John,

Is there any way to tell by serno which may have come from the initial build and which from the second one?

Prof Blink's application sounds perfect as a long-term test bed for one of these.  Just need to find him a clean one...

Also, are either you or Joel planning on doing a tear down inspection (hopefully with pics) on one of the ones where you found sand?  I'm thinking that it might be wise, just to ensure that everything else is still up to snuff (heat treating on gears, bearings, clearances, etc) like the original that we saw on the Utterpower site?

I think this boils down to a training issue.  Both in India, and now China, it comes down to the assemblers not understanding that each and every part needs to be spotless and the reasons for it.  My guess is they're not being told by management or the turnover is so high that the training is not keeping up.  Fix the training and the rest will follow I think.

I feel for you guys as unintended curve balls like this are a pain to deal with!

Regards,

Steve

[JohnF13]

I have already spoken to the factory and of course they have apologized - but that and a buck will get me a cup of coffee.  All depends on whether the next shipment is any better.

Yes, one of the engines has been stripped down to its component parts and I will be putting together a CD with lots of pics as time goes on.  It is pretty strange, I just can't see any upside to any company producing two different levels of product.  Seems to me the potential for mistakes (as may have happened here) is just far too high.  The Chinese are trying to recover from stuff such as the Melamine animal food, lead coated kids toys and now stuff like this.  You gotta wonder if their Q.C. guys are being paid by the Teamsters.

We'll get through this, it is just a bit annoying.  Up till now we have never had a problem with sand in Chinese engines - hopefully the resident Q.C. guy there has been introduced to Chinese justice........

[apogee_man]

"hopefully the resident Q.C. guy there has been introduced to Chinese justice........ "

Hopefully not that extreme.

Let's just hope that he now has been made extremely aware of the issue and maybe they've added a true final QC layer to their processes.

I bet it's mostly an issue of the block being too heavy to move around by oneself and perhaps the assembler(s) (perhaps one or more females or just lazy guys) didn't want to go to the effort of really cleaning the casting sand because it was too hard to lift and move the block around.

Just a guess...

I have faith that you guys will get it worked out soon enough...

[oliver90owner]

I just can't see any upside to any company producing two different levels of product.

Revenue.

Up-side for them - more sales of the cheap stuff, lower unit costs.  More of the failed 'high spec' castings, etc, used up without reprocessing back to molten metal.  A premium paid on the higher spec product.

Other examples are plastic buckets -  food grade must be virgin plasic, non-food could be recycled product, - foodstuffs - same factory better friut, or whatever, to Sainsbury's, other grades of fruit to the 'buy it cheap' chains, (breakfast cereals are another example), cement - the best will go to the big users in the concrete trade, any 'tailings' will go to the bagged product line.....

Goes on everywhere.  Just in your instance there is a definite downside when they short-change you

Of course, getting them mixed up is the real sin.

Regards, RAB

[Doug]

It happens all the time.

They will build some great product for you but they have to cut corners to make money and you get a few duds in there from all the corner cutting.

Then they says "OH NO we change nothing" and you get a few good ones again and then some more duds....
You find a new suplier and the cylce begins again.
Not as bad as India but the presure to produce at lowest cost is cripling and these people are facing an ecconomic down turn too so they MUST cut costs.

Some bad stuff will slip through the cracks, that just life....

[prof.blink]

good afternoon, last question,if i may, what should happens if an end user gets user gets stuck with a shoddy engine? should the dealer ship him or her  a carefully checked out replacement,or a couple of gaskets and a song and a dance? if i buy a $250 truck starter that does not work correctly, the re-builder hustles over, with hat in hand. with a replacement. how much is a new redstone? should anyone expect or deserve less? blink

[Doug]

That all depends on who sold you an engine and what they feel they obligated to do.

Some are very good others are not. One or two run  hot and cold and one guy is so full of Shite he says his engines are good for 100,000 hours but if it breaks ship him back the full engine and he will repair it for free ( YOU pay the shipping both ways ).

These are a do it yourselfer kind of thing so you only pay a couple of grand for an engine. If you want realy diesel oil field engine you will pay a great deal more to get that quality and service.

I just bought a Chinese Quad and mini bike for my son and I recently . I payed peanuts for it and dealer said he this is chinese they may be problems and things loosen up so stay on top of it. He's one of the good ones ( I get his best prices for parts and free pick of his scraps and used parts/engines ). If you can find a guy like that who is honest about the limitations of the product and will have the parts you need at a reasonanble price then that is good deal in my opinion.

There are guys out there selling engines ( notice I do not specificaly name people because I have been accused of bias ) you simply ned to do your homework and ask the right questions.....

[prof.blink]

doug, do it it your self kinda thing, yea,,,,ok, but at the 2500.00 price point the line gets blured. i would like to see the bare castings made available for purchase to sharpen the line between diys and buying eng fit for service. i hope you airplane guys do not start buying Lycombingoids and flying them over my house. blink

[hotater]

I've said it before and I'll say it again,  ALL Chinese and Indian engines **of this type and price range** should be considered a "kit" engine that will need inspection, corrections, and an *understanding of* before putting into use.  Failure to do so could result in the failure of the engine or even a lack of basic safety.

An engine **advertised** as NOT needing that treatment and 'ready to run till it breaks' has either been carefully worked over by a 'correction mechanic (and usually a machinist, too) at considerable extra cost,  or is a fantastic bargain by a gambling importer that hopes nobody looks.....or a crook is trying to sell by lying about it.

There is no free lunch.   An engine that produces usable horse-power for ten thousand hours on a small amount of a wide variety of fuels is worth at least $.35 per kilowatt hour produced.  I proved it to myself and wrote of the experience http://www.utterpower.com/magic_springs.htm.  

  When that cost of the basic engine is added to the fuel it uses and the gen-head or pump you're driving, and the care, feeding and maintenance of the unit, its clear that home-made electricity is not cheap, but it is independent and there's a lot to be said for that.

If you're in the market for a cheap engine in an effort to save money?  Forget it.  Either plan on working on it, spending some money to get it right, or pay somebody else to do it.  The final price is the same.  The enjoyment is the difference.  Consider it a very useful hobby, work with the importer, and have a LOT of fun creating what the Indo/Chinese usually miss, but give you the basics of a very useful engine that you can't *build* in a home shop, but you can sure correct it and repair it there if needed.

[prof.blink]

hotater, good point, what do you est. the value of inspection and correction on average $1500.00 6/1  blink

[hotater]

B-

Having re-built two Listeroid 6-1s and run them about 16 hours a day for a total of 10,000 hours and then having to offer the engine for sale, I can I think, fairly answer that question, but it's loaded with agonizing second guessing by others.

I used "$.35/KWh" using my Listeroids as an example.  They ran at 5500 feet elevation and carried a load of a near constant 2800 watt load with spikes to 5500 when a freezer started.  I had bigger gensets for the bigger loads and the Listeroids ran as 'everyday power'.

I think a properly 'corrected' 6-1 is worth *at least* $3500.  The guy doing the work might think otherwise, depending on what it takes to 'make it right'.

To *clean* an engine is different than making sure the piston runs square with the cylinder walls and the crankshaft is square with the head. http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/2271461130028237237FHPrVk

 To  *do a valve job* is much different on some Listeroids than anything an auto machine shop is even capable of doing.  To find someone that *wanted* to do it would be harder than paying for a very bad, but expensive job from Dufus McGrew the Snuffdipper that's an expert because he recognizes three angles.
http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2542634680028237237qQfdnc

I priced my 'Magic Throb II' engine and 5Kw ST head, mounted on solid concrete and wired to the structure at $5000 and it was turned down.  (whew!)
I still own it and the concrete is already poured to hear it purr again, but I'm (barely) on grid and don't need it every day, now.

[xyzer]

I look at it that you are buying a core to rebuild. My first 6/1 was $750.00 or about $1.00/lb. (plus shipping). Then I paid $1,200.00 for the second 6/1 or about $1.60/lb (plus shipping). Then I picked up a new Z482 Kubota (12hp) for about $1800.00 and paid about $12.00/lb. so it appears to get an out of the box runner you will need pay a bunch more money than we have been or just join the DIY gamblers club. A $10.00/lb "OID" with a 90day warrenty might cost $7,500. If they were to build an "OID" to a Kubota standard the whole production line would have to be scraped and re-tooled with modern equipment from the foundry to QC and that would be spendy. They do do a good job of packaging . If and when I jump for the Redstone at $2.25/lb? I will assume it needs a look over.

There is no free lunch.

Or you get what you pay for!

Dave

[prof.blink]

hotater,aside from the agonizing 2nd guessing, $3500.00 investment or 6to7 for a 12/2 is still a bargain. if the oem still produced those engs, i believe they would still sell well to the commercial segment. i see a lot of equipt. such as rollers,paving boxes,hyd cranes that would be a pleasure to operate w/those slow turners. in those 3 aplications, the operator is right on top of or in front of the engine for the complete work day. i am surprised these engines are not available in turn key form for those who need it NOW. blink

[hotater]

...and then there are the flocks of officials at customs, Ag Dept, Homeland Sec., shipping companies, dock workers, bonded warehouses, tarriff officials and inspectors of every grade just waiting like buzzards for the EPA to outlaw everything resembling 'obsolete technology'  (hobbies are for the Bourgeois  and demand they be made into artificial reefs for the endangered hairy snapper.

When you add in the risk of whirling Indian iron in notably porous flywheels capable of scattering various amounts of civil liability into multiple jurisdictions, the fact that you *certified* it of good quality will drain your total worth to millions below zero like a firecracker in a cow patty.

SO, the work to make one 'right' could be $2000 and the ability to insure against catastrophic failure a like amount.....IF you can convince an underwriter to take the coverage.  Smart ones charge more for more risk.  Some flywheels have broken.   I saw a little KID running around a running 6-1 on youtube.  It's just a matter of time before one is turned into a juicy version of a flap-wheel grinder.  Some Congressman or Peer will write a bill......

Grab one when you can, buy George's CD and STUDY what has been learned about the fascinating world of new old engines.  All you need is a level, a square, a set of feeler gages and a straight-edge to set one up to run longer than most lawn mower wantabes.

There was a Cricket roller with a 5-1 in it on ebay several years ago.   

I'm going to jack-shaft one to a concrete mixer of a big pool project this summer.

[JohnF13]

Blink;

The Brits stopped making these engines because they were priced out of the market.  When unions are demanding $30+ an hour for a guy in a casting shop and more for the "fit and finish" guys it is easy to see why no-one would buy the engines at a price that would give the manufacturer a decent return on investment.  That resulted in the machinery being sold to the Indians, who could care less about Q.C.  All they want to do, at minimal wages, is to produce something that will work for a couple of hundred hours before needing repairs.  Some of us have gone through the hoops with the Indians trying toget them to improve Q.C., but you just can't get past the fact that they assemble the engines on a dirt floor.  Things are much better now that they were with SOME manufacturers, but there is one point you MUST understand - the average person on this type of board believes that price is the ultimate decider of where to buy.  That means someone who has worked with a manufacturer and introduced (costly) improvements cannot see anything approaching a reasonable R.O.I.  Here's just one example - the engines I buy probably cost around $200 more at the factory gate than some of my competitors.  BUT, after getting them here I constantly hear from potential purchasers that "brand X" is cheaper so they are buying from them.

I CAN provide you with a properly finished Listeroid or Redstone - prices would be in the $5,000 and $7000 range respectively.  Just tell me how many you want and I'll get right on it.