Puppeteer

Author Topic: Redstone engines  (Read 134363 times)

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #105 on: April 04, 2009, 11:35:32 PM »
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.

--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #106 on: April 04, 2009, 11:37:58 PM »


I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.

Would that come with a 100,000 hour warranty ?!

no, I'd make no such warranty, you might walk around all day with valve paste on one hand and an angle grinder in the other.
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #107 on: April 04, 2009, 11:50:08 PM »
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.



What year (s) ?
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #108 on: April 04, 2009, 11:51:23 PM »
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.


So... £7.5K, £10.8K and £13k respectively, in today's (well, 2006's) money. That's assuming a 1950 date, using this website to calculate it.

The high inflation in some of the intervening (and previous) years will have a big effect on the price in today's money....

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #109 on: April 04, 2009, 11:53:00 PM »


I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.

Would that come with a 100,000 hour warranty ?!

no, I'd make no such warranty, you might walk around all day with valve paste on one hand and an angle grinder in the other.

No deal then !! LOL !!
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

GuyFawkes

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1184
    • View Profile
    • stuff
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #110 on: April 04, 2009, 11:59:09 PM »
2.5 kW was 290 quid
4.5 kW was 447 quid
7.5 kW was 534 quid and 10 bob

all prices less 5% discount for cash, all LSD money of course

carriage paid to nearest railway station and one visit by one works trained engineer within the first 12 months included.


So... £7.5K, £10.8K and £13k respectively, in today's (well, 2006's) money. That's assuming a 1950 date, using this website to calculate it.

The high inflation in some of the intervening (and previous) years will have a big effect on the price in today's money....


yup, and in a related thing, I think it was you talking about 60hz from a start-o-matic

the 2.5 kW were all belt coupled 6/1s, the 4.5 and 7.5 kW were all direct coupled freedom singles or twins respectively.

there was no 50 or 60 hz alternator, alternator was just spun at 1500 or 1800 as erequired, and set for 220-240 vac or 110 vac as required.

in the case of the 2.5 kW the 6/1 always ran at 650 rpm, just used a smaller alternator pulley for 60 hz

in the case of direct coupled just spin the motor at 1800
--
Original Lister CS 6/1 Start-o-matic 2.5 Kw (radiator conversion)
3Kw 130 VDC Dynamo to be added. (compressor + hyd pump)
Original Lister D, megasquirt multifuel project, compressor and truck alternator.
Current status - project / standby, Fuel, good old pump diesel.

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #111 on: April 05, 2009, 12:10:41 AM »
The 8/1 was 4.5 KW of course. How was the alternator set to 110 V when run at 1800 RPM for 60HZ  ?
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

AdeV73

  • Guest
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #112 on: April 05, 2009, 12:30:25 AM »

The 8/1 was 4.5 KW of course. How was the alternator set to 110 V when run at 1800 RPM for 60HZ  ?


Although my knowledge of alternator theroy is limited (in the extreme), I'd guess it's a combination of the excitation current & the number of windings employed.

To switch to transformers for a moment, a 120-0-120 transformer has "a centre tap" - at 0v relative to 120v either side of it; so you can either get 240v by connecting to the lead at each end (leaving the centre tap disconnected), or 120v by connecting to either end lead & the centre tap. An alternator is pretty similar to a transformer in this respect; so, if there's a centre tap on the alternator's output windings, you can get 1/2 volts using it as one of the terminals.

The excitation current thing I've not looked at (& therefore not understood), I'm guessing it varies the strength of the electromagnet which, in turn, increased the induced current in the windings; but that is just a guess...

Assuming all of the above is OK: You'd increase the speed of the alternator to achieve 60hz, and reduce the excitation current to bring the voltage back down to 240, and a centre tap to take out 120v: OR, just reduce the excitation current to the level where you're getting 120v in the whole winding.

That's how I'd do it anyway.

compig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1264
  • 1953 Lister CS 6/1 SOM owner
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #113 on: April 05, 2009, 12:34:32 AM »
Was wondering if the provision for adjustment was made in the control box of if it was inside the alternator.
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!

jtodd

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #114 on: April 05, 2009, 02:27:25 AM »

A few things:

   - The Redstone looks interesting.  I'll side with the "unproven" crowd, but I'm interested in seeing it proven and I consider myself an optimistic sceptic.

   - I agree that at first blush (at least, at my first looking) there seems to be only basic information available about the engine.  In fact, I have no idea how much they cost - I haven't found any web pages that seem to mention it.  Maybe I missed it in this thread?  Anyway, more information is always better.  Pictures speak louder than words.  Video speaks louder than pictures.  One can avoid rust by immediately drying wet metal; the same technique is true with new products.  Immediate and complete data about new products prevents corrosion of customer base, as we see happening here.  Even if it's not available for sale, more data is better than no data.

   - I'll help with anyone who wants to put their YouTube where their mouth is.  I'm in Portland (close to Joel; I've met him, and I've also driven up to meet George) and I'd be happy to videotape/photograph any unpacking/initial installation/first run tests with one of the engines.  I'm not going to bother to contact either Joel or George directly; hopefully they'll find this post if they're interested.  I'm available on some weekends.


PS: GuyFawkes asked about cheapskates. I'm not one.  Being "cheap" is not the same as being wise with money spent.  I'm happy to spend money up front if I know it makes my life less expensive or brings more "good" in the long run.  This is why I've got the last US-imported Dursley 12/2, and all the other components of my engine system are stainless, galvanized, or coated with plastic truck bed liner.

JT


lowspeedlife

  • old iron for a new age
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • no i'm not no cowboy
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2009, 03:06:25 AM »
Jtodd, though i can't find it now i'm pretty positive i read in this thread the price of $2495.00 including spares & a flywheel puller, but don't remeber if that was U.S. or Canadian. If i am wrong please someone correct me.


   SR.
Scott R.

5.7 liter diesel k-5 blazer. converting to wvo.
omega 20/2 listeroid

Doug

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3386
  • Why don't pictures ever work for me?
    • View Profile
    • Doug's Petteroid Stuff
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2009, 05:41:36 AM »
If you are not saying HOLY SHIT for an unknown Chinese engine at the price well I dunno what to say.

For that money a used and tottaly rebuilt Onan DJA is affordable and its a known bullit proof engine, not to mention the US built Lister CD I saw this evening right here
It's a Good Life, If You Don't Weaken

oliver90owner

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 861
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2009, 07:43:58 AM »
If you are not saying HOLY SHIT for an unknown Chinese engine at the price

Doug,

You may be right, you may be wrong.

As stated the price reflects the cost of the 'oid twins and it is not at this present time suggesting it will be good to replace a 6/1 - just giving a lot of people hope that it might possibly run OK lower down the rev range with modifications.  I am doubting that and I have given my reasons, but I may be proved wrong, who knows?  I have not said it will not and await a further trickle of information.

Depends on the guarantee  as well.  That has to be factored into the cost base.  It might include the cost of a complete set of SKF bearings, who knows?

I know that cheap Chinese diesel gensets are available at much less than that price.  Personally, I would much prefer to stay with my 3 1/2 kVA Hatz diesel screamer at 3000rpm than change for a shiny new cheapo cr*p heap that may not last long and has only a 'throw-away and buy another' repair philosophy.  The fact is, it would be cheaper to throw it away than have it repaired by an engineer. They are cheaper to be 'built' in China and shipped half way round the world than open up and repair!

I see a 5 1/2 continuous rated diesel genset for 1400 dollars (delivered) just from the first few hits on Google.  Says it will produce near 45kWh using 4 gallons of fuel in 8 hours.  Low noise, all the extras, including electric start.   Doesn't say how long before it is worn out.

I would think the price quoted for the Redstone is, like the information available, likely to change.  If it dropped enough it sounds like even you might change your tune.  How cheap would it need to be, for you to test one?

Regards, RAB

mobile_bob

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2909
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2009, 12:10:51 PM »
RAB

don't get him started with a redstone, he still hasn't reported back anything from his petteroid other than
it was the biggest piece of crap he ever saw!

which was not the case in my opinion :)

all:

i still don't understand all the negativity over the redstone

the engine is priced very competitive to any listeroid in around the 20hp class

so it comes down to some pretty simple thinking in my opinion

buy a listeroid and be assured that you will need to tear it down to the last bolt, and rebuild it
pour a ton of concrete, and then spend a not insignificant amount of time tinkering with it, repairing, and rebuilding it
over its lifetime, oh yes and hand cranking it, or...

at least take a look at the Redstone, and rationally analize the design.

all the redstone is, is another option, an option that many are beginning to feel fits their specific needs better than a listeroid.

i suspect when the chips are down, the redstone will find its biggest following with those that live offgrid and need dependable power
the cheap sucker/hobbiest will still seek out the cheapest 6/1 he can find, or self import a petteroid, and forever bitch about it not being
quite right, all the while being all puckered up with sour grapes over any other engine that comes along.

interesting to me at least is

how many people think the redstone is a brand new engine with no history, who in their right mind thinks this is a new engine and as such
could have been prototyped, put into manufacture, shipped and now available for sale at around 2 grand? The first dozen of such an engine would likely cost 10x that amount of money.

what makes anyone think that these engines have not been around for a very long time doing hard work in the interior of china, likely not on a 3 wheel tractor, but maybe pumping water, oil or god knows what?

i have been thinking back, and for the life of me, i don't recall very many horror stories relating to water cooled chinese diesels
like the singles we use here (excluding any possible issues with tractor mounted units)

i would suspect that for every changfa that has had a serious problem there are a hundred 6/1 listeroids reported with worse issues.

but noooo, we will continue to talk smack about the chinese piece of crap enigne's, all the while the little chinese piece of crap engines keep
right on doing what they do best,, that being running.

of the two countries and the QC issues, which would a thinking man choose to try out a different engine from?

china has proven to be able to build engine's that do what they are advertised and intended to do, while india has proven only that
they can build cast iron doorstops with any consistancy that just so happen to look like a lister if you squint your eyes just right.

like it or not, this engine the redstone is here to stay, it will fill its niche in the market, and displace the listeroid in the 20hp class
and nudge into lower hp classes as well as higher hp classes .

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

Kurt802

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #119 on: April 05, 2009, 03:12:06 PM »
The Redstone looks like the JSD1800D manufactured by Shandong New Juling Group in China.
They manufacture several dual flywheel horizontal diesel engines.  I would like the JSD3200 at 42hp ;D
The rest of the world has 'em