Redstone engines

[Stan]

I suspect the real answer can only be determined with both money AND time!  Personally, I would love to travel to China and tour engine factories.  Unfortunately my wife wants to see the great wall, the terra cotta warriors etc. etc.  I sense there will be no compromise there. 
Stan

[apogee_man]

Thanks Stan for the link.

I'd searched around and had seen similar engines advertised by Chinese companies, but hadn't paid attention to the HP.  By the pic, I just thought they were all Changfa's.  I should have looked more closely.

I have absolutely no doubt that Joel and John are outstanding to deal with.  I also think they would do whatever was necessary to support the engines. 

It was not my intent to cast a shadow on what they are trying to do in any way, as I'm sure the entire experience of dealing with them would be outstanding.  To date, Joel and I have emailed a number of times and I could not possibly ask for better customer service.  I'm not a customer yet, but fully intend to be one day, and he's been very patient with my newbie questions.  John sent me basically the same reply as at the beginning of the thread initially, and then explained their position when questioned further.  Again, very nice, very patient, and knowledgeable.  Couldn't ask for more imho.

An no, I don't have any relationship with either of them in any way.  Just relating my experiences thus far.

As part of my considering these engines, I simply wanted to know that parts will be available 10 years from now from some source somewhere.  Hence why I was interested in doing more homework on them.  I was slightly frustrated by them not being willing to disclose any more info on them, but at the same time I understood and respected their position on the matter.

For the record, George has info on it at the utterpower site.  I thought it looked very different from the pics that I'd been seeing that were similar to what Stan posted.  You can see better pics here:

http://www.utterpower.com/Redstone.htm

They appear to have done their homework and are trying to offer a truly nice product!

Finally, the price works out to be the same whether from the US or Canada.  No being able to take advantage of the currency difference going one way or the other.

Hope this helps!

Steve

[compig]

Chinese engines aint the chick magnet that the CS is though !!

[Stan]

Just tell them it's an engine that's discovered its nicer doing it on it's back.  Maybe you can follow up with a suggestion of your own.  You know, horizontal piston action?   

Yup, I met John a couple of years ago when Andrew showed me how to find his place.  He struck me as a good guy, his offgrid setup is fantastic and is a must see if you are in the Ottawa area.

Stan

[Montana]

Well the information on this engine is nice.  I have tried to contact the US guy to see if any are availible but its been several days and Joel Koch hasn't replied.  Is there any one else supplying them?   

If I can fnd one I'll buy it and sell the Omega 6/1 that I have in the basement.  I havent tried to start it yet as im still working on cleaning up the 12/1 Powerline I got for Christmas.
Mike

[mobile_bob]

personally i wouldn't get too nutted up about the availability of parts 10 years down the road.

anyone here want to bet on whether Ford, GM or Chrysler will be around in a year? 5? 10?

its also fair to note the guys that are doing the redstone thing will have a distribution network setup
with engines and parts on all continents before they are done.

the engines themselves are so much better in design and build quality than that of the typical listeroid
that the likelihood of anyone needing any substantial hard parts is likely near nill.

most folks don't run 24/7, and if you are one of the few that do you probably will lay in a selection of repair parts
when you order your engine anyway. if you are running 24/7 you know you can't live without your engine even for a few days
waiting for parts even if they were on the shelf ready to ship from across the state.

anyone else that likely will be running intermittently, or during storms and the like
the engine will likely outlast most of us as is, and i wouldn't expect much of a need for parts apart from
maybe what comes in the spares kit anyway.

i suppose anyone that doesn't follow that logic should maybe look into buying some other engine?
maybe a kubota, yanmar or perkins?  even those might be tricky gettin parts for?

and who knows how many of those manufactures will be around in 10 years?

the way things are going now, i wouldn't bet on all of these manufactures being around.

for that matter does anyone of us have a guarantee we will wake up tomorrow?



bob g

[Ironworks]

I guess I'll play devils advocate here.  I heard the same propoganda and hype about the Listeroid in the beginning.  I think the proof will be in the pudding.

[mobile_bob]

hype?

so did i, and i took it upon myself to go have a look at both a listeroid and a changfa

and in my opinion the changfa was clearly a better designed engine for my use.

then came the opportunity to see a redstone come out of its crate, filled with oil, water and fuel
see it run just sitting there on the plywood slab.

took a look at the design prints in the manual, and saw how it was built internally
suffice it to say, comparing one to a listeroid is like comparing a steinway to a dime store kids 5 key noise maker.

the first thing i look at is overall design, second is casting quality, third is assembly, and finally how it runs

if i had use for what the redstone can deliver (and i might change my use to fit one yet) i would wholesale off all my other
engine's in favor of a redstone.

bob g

[JohnF13]

Jens;

Negative thinking like yours ensures that there will never be any improvement.  Free-standing houses (as opposed to caves) flushing toilets, flight, internal combustion engines, space travel - all "unproven" at one point - are you suggesting that Ludditism is the way to go?  Someone, somewhere, has to start a new project or we are all doomed to inadequate failure - but that is not in the nature of man. Consider for a moment the problems you have encountered with your "proven" engine and what you have had to do to "fix" them.  What we observe while running the Redstones and what we discover when stripping them down down is what we report.  Neither Joel nor I have any interest in a "quick sale and out".  I think we have proved that with our commitment to the Listers and to our honest and open reporting of faults that we have found.

Where do you get the idea that "it is not ready for prime time"?  What in your quote actually says that? Anyone with a Lister needs "mechanical skills".  Of course it is a good idea to join a users group, the same as people on this forum learn about Listers.  Would you ever have managed to get your engine up and running without the infinite patience of this group?  Read again Mobile Bob's reports - what does he say about the quality of the engine?

As for pricing, you have absolutely no idea of the money and time we have put into these engines - and quite frankly, we are not going to tell you.  Importing, stocking spares,holding on to inventory and warehouse costs all add up. The engines are priced fairly considering our costs, pricing in China and shipping.  Additionally, pricing is comparable to a much lesser quality big twin Lister.  I will tell you that in business selling price is generally calculated at 3 times all input costs - our pricing is nowhere near that.

[compig]

Quality of manufacture and materials will almost certainly be better from China than from India.

[BruceM]

I just hope there will be a baby Redstone someday to replace my Listeroid 6/1.  Low speed but with enclosed valve train and more modern design, better QC would be a big plus.  Don't get me wrong, I'm very glad to have my Listeroid 6/1, the peace of hearing is marvelous.  But a baby Redstone would be even sweeter, for me.

Bruce M

[compig]

For me it doesn't look anywhere near as sexy as a CS and the speed is too high.

[JohnF13]

Jens;

You are missing a salient point - it is the Redstone USERS group. 

While the CS is certainly cuter, a lot of folks want higher power.  For those not using their engines very much a large single or twin Lister may work fine, but for those of us relying on the machines for constant output the Lister IMHO, is just not the answer.  As for speed, 1000 rpm vs 1300 - not much of a difference and certainly slower than a Changfa at 1800.

[compig]

even 1000 rpm sounds frantic compared to 650 though. Agreed on the power issue.

[rcavictim]

ahhhh but 1000-1200 RPM sounds so laid back and easy compared to 1800.