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Author Topic: Redstone engines  (Read 136655 times)

mobile_bob

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #90 on: April 03, 2009, 02:08:59 AM »
i ain't backin off of jackshit!

nope ain't gonna do it!

never ever,, ever...

now then i must go back and reread what i have posted, but i am pretty sure i have not stated that i think it is a perfect
engine without its faults,, to date i have never met such an engine no matter how much it costs or who made it.
the perfect engine does  not exist.

having said that there certainly are engine's that are better than others, and there are most certainly better engineered engines
than others, and it is without a doubt that there are engine's with vastly better QC.

i don't think i have been secretive about how i feel about any engine, everyone should know by now that i don't like the tophole fed
lister/oid rod brgs for one, i don't like cats 3126 oil cooler, and i could go on for pages but nobody cares one way or the other.

the thing is, basically in my opinion, the redstone design is a sound one from everything that i have seen.
i was initially very skeptical when i had heard that it was not a counterbalanced engine, that one feature was a non starter in my opinion.
when i found out it had a counterbalance shaft then i thought "well ok, lets take a closer look at this puppy"

upon closer inspection, looking at the prints, the parts list, pictures of all the parts, starting and hearing it run, i became a bunch more
optimistic about the engine.

like i said before this is really an apples to oranges comparison, the only thing the redstone shares with a big listeroid is that it burns diesel fuel.

quite frankly i don't understand all the fuss and negativity surrounding this engine, most especially from those that will likely never see one
up close and will never own one.

over the years i have seen many new engine's come to market, and have been pretty much on target with my assessment of what they will run like, what is likely to be a problem and whether they will be successful or not.

back in the late 70's detroit decided to get into the 4 stroke mid size engine game with the 8.2 V8
there was so much excitment over that engine it wasn't even funny,, it was called a fuel squeezer
the only thing it squeezed was money out the new owners pocket, and i told detroit that after seeing the first
prototype engine's at detroits training center.. they told me the same thing
"you are not an engineer, you are a mechanic, and therefore you don't know what you are talking about"

that engine turned out to be much worse than the old 5.7 diesel that most everyone learned to hate.

the bottom line is i have been around enough engine's over the last 40 years to have a feel for good design
and also a second sense for what is likely to be problematic design.

just like the boys that build race engine's, they can take a look at an engine and know up front whether it is
designed strong enough to warrant spending time on to develop.

or like most farmers they can look at a tractor and tell if the sheet metal is likely to crack and fall off in the first season,
no plastic is going to impress them.

same goes for heavy equipment operators, find one that has been around for 40 years and he can take a walk around
of a new piece of equipment and tell you what is likely to bend, break or fall off.

after looking over the redstone it is hard for me to imagine that there are any shortcomings in the design that will cause anywhere
near the grief some folks have had with listeroids, my god there are thousands of reports of broken timing gears, sand, leaking head gskts,
worn guides, non rotating lifters blah blah blah

not to say the lister was a bad design, but some of the listers are very poor copies of the original.

yes we shall see the Redstone coming online with more and more folks getting and working them.

i would bet a dollar to a dog turd that the problems will be a fraction of a percent of those reported by listeroid buyers.

and no they won't be perfect, but
it all comes down to picking your poison, buy a listeroid and know up front that there are many problems that must be addressed
before you start it, and many more you will be dealing with over time, or

buy a Redstone and at least have something that likely does not require a complete teardown, rework, refinish and refit
before you put it into service.

what is you time worth?

buy a 1400 dollar 6/1 and spend a couple hundred more dollars in replacement parts (with shipping) and what? 40 hours
labor to go through it? or spend ~2500 for a big twin and double the dollars in replacement parts and labor?

vs

buying a Redstone, fit it up right and put it to work

maybe it is because i have a very bad back? there is no way i want to pour a ton of concrete to mount an engine
that alone is enough difference to me, and likely many other older folks.

ok, i tell you what
anyone that wants a pair of petteroid twins, with w/pumps, fan and radiators, preban and in the crate let me know
i will part with them for a very good price and then put my money where my mouth is.
i will then buy a Redstone, fit it with either an st12, stc12 or st15 (i got them already) and put it through its paces.
it will be cradle mounted and will run as smooth as silk with no vibration transmitted to any adjoining structure.
i will dyno the living hell out of it, do whatever testing you guys want and invite anyone that wants to come over and witness
any testing.
and i will do it out of the crate with no take down for inspection till after all testing is complete, and likely won't even bother to do so
then.

i am just tired of reading all the bullcrap from those that have never seen or heard the engine run, never seen a print of the engine, or a parts list.

there are those that are so negative, and bring nothing to the table, no alternatives??

you see the problem i have with all this is based on what would a newbie think when he comes onto this board?
typically when one comes onto a new forum he takes notice of the post count and assumes a large number attributed to
an individual equates to that individual being some sort of expert in the subject matter, when clearly this is often not the case.

yes i too have a large post count, and sometime i am embarrassed of it. i try to post things that are hopefully helpful if not always
positive, and i do make an effort to not be negative about things i know little or nothing about. i don't expect anyone to take my word for
anything, nor should anyone take anyones word for anything.

what folks should do is read up on what is available and do some research, read what is posted and if it is negative read it carefully to find out why the poster is negative, conversely if there is a positive report, read it too carefully to learn if the reasoning is sound.

there is no reason why we can't have opposing views and oppinions, but we should be able to support our positions without going to blows.

i think i have been fair and supported why i think the redstone is a good engine, what i like about the design, and the QC
and have compared it honestly with the typical indian listeroid.

on the other hand there are those that take a negative view of the engine based on what? some secret handshake bullshit?

good grief i ain't special, if i want to know about something i do what i have to do to find what i want to know.
bearing in mind that a teaspoon of sugar goes alot further than a gallon of vinegar with most folks.

in other words, i don't go out of my way to poke suppliers in the eye and then expect them to provide  me with information.

good way to burn a bridge and then find oneself on the outside looking in.

ymmv

bob g
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lowspeedlife

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2009, 03:14:48 AM »
HEY! lay off my 5.7, ARP head studs & don't drag race 'em & they are great, i've gotten 530 miles from a 20 gallon tank in a full sized pontiac bonneville w/ power everything even running the a/c, so what if the tops of the head bolts kept poppin off like jumpin beans  :o ;D LOL.

      Scott R.
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omega 20/2 listeroid

mobile_bob

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2009, 03:34:16 AM »
oh the venerable 5.7 what an engine,

pales in comparison to the 8.2l detroit

couldn't keep head gskts so there fix was a field repair, drillout the blocks 15mm threads and hand tap 17mm
for bigger bolts, ya right. many engines blew all to hell and cost rebuilders lots of money in claims due to the damn head
bolts were too small, i too got bit once and only once with this one.

oh yes,, need to install new cam brgs,, what? they aren't presized like every other cam brg on the planet?
i have to take the block in for a line bore?  good grief!

oh yes, lest i forget the gearotor oil pump fitted into a bushing in the front of the block
don't mess with that bushing either,, else the block goes to a bridgeport to have it sized and located properly for
gear clearance, now that was rich!

base circle timeing?  detroit used timing picks for 50 years for the same damned injectors,, but nooooo
we gotta use a dial indicator and do the base circle dance? up under a firewall? what are they out of their minds.

yes and they smoked, hard to start, leaked oil like their ancestoral roots would dictate

what pieces of crappola they were.

and the odd thing was, was the fact that i being all of about 20 years old when i first saw the prototype engines, told the detroit
rep what was likely to fail on that engine. (ya, ya, kid you are a mechanic,, now go away)

bet he still remembers that conversation! :)

so yes, you don't have to go offshore to get some real crap.

we have built some real winners all by ourselves.

bob g
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nobby

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2009, 04:39:14 AM »
John all the best with the Mk 2 resto, as far as I know still ranked one of the most popular getaway cars, so much so that the Police started using them.  Only wish I could get to putting my Austin A40 pickup on the road or my DS come to that.

Bob interesting concept, never viewed myself as an import and I am not sure if I will ever quite live up to the Redneck description, I love a good peaty Scotch to much to start drinking Bourbon, although I do own a 4x4 (diesel suburban though not pickup) and once the kids get a wee bit older I am sure that a gun will reappear in my life.  As to the car this is a somewhat before my time however I am thinking Shelby Cobra which incidently would of been an English AC Chassis/body shipped to CA for Shelby to power and then would of been shipped back to race.  If this indeed is the car you are referring to then I suspect that part of the Brit admiration for it was based on it being partly British also.  GT40 also sprang to mind but they came later didn't they, however how could you not love the lines on that car.

Now on topic, seems to me that hype is being built on both sides about the Redstone, I am seeing phrases along the lines of 100,000 hour and be and end all etc from the sceptical side and to be quite honest I do not believe that the sellers of the units are touting that at all nor is Bob come to that.  What I am seeing is a move away by the sellers from the Blister and a new avenue of finding an engine that is built with better QC and design that will be of little if any issue out of the box and give a good lifespan.  This based somewhat on a frustration with the poor QC of Blisters and in all reality the tough times they had getting the Indian producers to improve things, seems to me it left them as suppliers with an inability to truly stand behind the product.  I would certainly feel that way.  I can speak from personal experience how frustrating it can be when as a supplier you find issues with a product and cannot get the manufacturer to realise this and step up and make a remedy to the situation.  Also the thought of as a supplier having to strip a unit down and clean/rebuild before you sell it just seems plain bum about face to me.

This is a small niche market and seems to me that as a seller there would need to be a wee bit of initial secrecy as they set themselves up and invest in a product that will have fairly minimal sales and cannot stand too much competition.  I myself am working on a product idea and am currently telling no one about it as there really is only room for one or two sellers of this product within the US, one needs to be somewhat secure and setup when finally going public in a situation like this.  I do not see any real secrecy now though specs are published by John and George is posting pictures, so what that they have their own owners forum big deal.  I will say this though it is off putting that all we have stateside is Joels email address and no real website/source of info of his own, we do have Georges website giving info.  However as a potential customer and a businessman I strongly suggest that he puts something info wise out there himself no info from the horses mouth does help to fuel this skepticism and suspicion.

Bottom line is the proof of the pudding......... looks like we have a couple of step up to the plate offers and so i am sure we will all be watching this space for results.

Cheers
Nobby

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Looking for a CD

mobile_bob

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2009, 05:52:16 AM »
1961 was the year, and it was Dan Gurney in a chevy powered by the new 409 cu/in v8

left the double overhead cam jag's way back in the dust whining like mad trying to figure out what just about
inhaled them.

from reports of the time, the brit fan's loved the 409 and it roar could be heard coming from a long long ways.

somewhere i have a bunch of pictures taken of that car in action, coming over rises airborne

bet that was a blast to see

bob g
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oliver90owner

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #95 on: April 04, 2009, 02:04:28 AM »
May be time just to look at where this thread is headed and what has been hidden or lost in the individual postings.

Here are a few bits gleaned which may not be intended to cloud the issue, but might do in some cases.

the redstones piston speed is right in the hunt with other slowspeed diesel engines, most notably at peak torque, even though the rpm is higher than the 6/1. The copmparison with a 6/1 is inapproprite here.  The redstone operates at twice, or more, than the 6/1 (but the stroke is only slightly less than the Lister).


No overhung weight Crank may be comparitively longer on a Lister but the flywheels cannot be much closer to the bearings, especially the sleeve type.

remove and decarbon its head in half the time it would take to remove one lister gib key.  No particular comparison here.  You don't need to remove a gib key to decarbonise a 6/1!!

and it don't have gib keys! Gib keys are more repairable than a tapered shaft should  the need arise.  The Blackstone engines had gib keys.  Ok, perhaps a modern day method, progress.

no doubt that the big end brg is getting more than adequate lubrication  and seems to be sufficient If there is no doubt, OK, but not yet proven it seems.  If designed properly there woud be adequate oil supply at minimum speed - but the pump may be geared for 1100 RPM minimum operation, so may need mods to run lower speeds, especially for engines after long service.

on the drive side referring to size of bearing for axial thrust, but does that mean it can only be used to drive from one side?

It has a piston cooler  Should it need one?  Naturally aspirated, not that high specific power or is there a piston temperature issue?

it has a water pump and reverse flow cooling system (which is a plus in my opinion),  Answers the question re doing away with the water pump and thermo-syphoning.  Obvious not a possibility - no can do,  not within the warrantee anyhow.

as would installing a full pressure lube oil filter Now that is a surprise that there is not one on a modern engine design.  Does it have a bypass filter, any filtration?  Or does it recommend non-detergent oil?  I reckon the engine will be marketed with some sort of filtration.

future will tell us if we can make  reliability similar  Top notch obviously not yet proven but honesty, not like some engine suppliers, is a good thing in a supplier, particularly when all these questions are being asked before it is openly available to all in the marketplace.

This looks to be a very nicely made piston  Then later we find it is a cast aluminium piston, not a forged product, so initial comment was more from an aesthetic viewpoint, not an engineering one?

Collectively, we may have enough influence to make the Redstone exactly what we want it to be I read that as 'it is not yet exactly right, but..'.  That is probably the reason for the testing/appraisal etc that is going on before it comes to the open market.

We also found that the engines were as easy, or even easier, to work on than the Listeroids Elsewhere there is a slightly conflicting remark.  But so what?  If you don't need to work on it often, does that really matter?  A decent workshop manual would be a plus!


These were a few of the takes that I read with care, or noticed, on re-reading the thread (avoiding the irrelevant comments from some and the digressions of several, from the relevant subject) and the meagre, but appetite whetting, offerings elsewhere, and my thought s on them.

My overall view is yes, it was modelled on the Blackstone series engines; yes it is new and unproven as yet in this form (although it may be a design which has been marketed in China for some time); similarity ends with half the weight, twice the speed and much higher specific power output, oversquare design; it has no option for anything other than an aluminium piston at those engine revs; reverse flow cooling system (probably more efficient but no KISS there).

Would I buy one?  No, not if my JP is any good - and I would look around for another Blacksone (if it isn't, and I needed one).  I might be lucky that the local museum has lots of Blackstone engine information and there are still enough people round town to enquire of, if need be. 

That does not reflect on the new engine, just my situation.  Living very close to two very well respected names in the power generation industry (Blacksones and Newage Engineering) probably means I am spoiled for choice.
 
Some won't like the engine because it doesn't look like an antique - just a  functional prime mover.

I can undestand some being wary - from reports of some tractor imports with mega failings, for instance, I would be.  Anyone who trusts cheap chinese bearings needs there head testing is my view and Chinese bearings do have a poor reputation.  However if they are specc'ed correctly they will be as good as any other.  I would hope all the bearings in this new engine are premium ones.  If they are not they will be likely to fail prematurely.

I would add that it is not Chinese junk that is exported to us all; it is the importers who spec the quality and joe public who buys that junk that those cheap importers pass on.  For a good quality product you simply pay extra.

I believe that the 20 engines is all about testing and appraisal.  Much better to do the dirty washing in private and present a reliable product when it is ready and not before.  As it is a Chinese product I would expect there to be some issues. 

These need not be insurmountable but an engine released for operation/general sale, before it is fully appraised and followed by early reports of premature failures would kill the project, and severely dent the good reputation of the suppliers. 

I think they are right in what they are doing and everyone should respect that and be patient.  If it as as good as predicted by Bob, it will find a niche in the market.

to help develop our version further.  Sums it fairly well. 

Regards, RAB

compig

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #96 on: April 04, 2009, 12:03:37 PM »
Haven't been reading this thread very often , so what happens , talk of evocative cars thats what !!  Nobby , you have a DS , lucky man , those things are uber cool !!  GT40 , one of the all time best looking cars ever , lets not forget that Ford needed Lola to create it !!  AC Cobra , my all time favourite real world car as I will probably never be able to have a Ferrari 250 LM , P4 , Bugatti Type 35B , Porsche 917 or Alfa Monza !! The Cobra also needed a Brit company for it to materialise and was then responsible for our 70 MPH motorway speed limit !!  Gotta love V8's though , in the American form of 16 valve , pushrod format it must be the best power package ever designed ! Personally speaking though , the straight 8 is the hair prickler !!
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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #97 on: April 04, 2009, 12:51:47 PM »
Some won't like the engine because it doesn't look like an antique - just a  functional prime mover.

Regards, RAB

I think that's a bigger factor than some of you guys realize. With a lister(oid) you get a prime mover and an engine that commands attention 8). I already had a generator with a Tecumseh engine and I didn't think it looked that cool :).
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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #98 on: April 04, 2009, 01:11:14 PM »

I can undestand some being wary - from reports of some tractor imports with mega failings, for instance, I would be.  Anyone who trusts cheap chinese bearings needs there head testing is my view and Chinese bearings do have a poor reputation.  However if they are specc'ed correctly they will be as good as any other.  I would hope all the bearings in this new engine are premium ones.  If they are not they will be likely to fail prematurely.


Regards, RAB

addressed to the subject in general, not rab.

There is an issue here, it is a fundamental issue, and the clue is you trip over it buying camera lenses, you trip over it buying hacksaw blades, you trip over it buying microphones, you trip over it buying li-on batteries, you trip over it buying spanners, and you trip over it buying stationary engines, and stationary engine spare.

It is common to all these things, because it is a universal truth.

"cheap" and "quality" and "new"

pick any two

as long as you have a hole in your ass you will not be able to buy cheap new quality, not even by exporting the pain and suffering of 50 cents a day labour, if these engines are cheap then they aren't quality, end of story.

Lister Dursley "assembly line" fitters cost a million times more per hour / per engine than vindaloo fitters, and a PART of that inequality was down to the skill differences, yeah, you can get very skilled indian / chinese / asian turners and fitters, very very skilled, but for the same cheap / quality / new reasons, they won't be working at the vindaloo engine factory for 3 cups of rice an hour.

Lister fitters were all skilled and experienced artisans, most of them were multi-skilled artisans, you cannot do anything but improve a good mechanic / fitter / engineer by teaching him at the side of a turner, and then at the side of a boilermaker, and then at the side of a foundryman...

YES, you can pick less than two out of cheap / quality / new, you can pay a lot of money for crap, but you can never buy quality new for anything other than a lot of money.

what do you call someone who uses generic condoms?

a cheap fucker.

that is what everyone on here is, a cheap fucker, and the only way cheap fuckers can ever get their hands on quality is by buying old, not new.

howls of rage from all the cheap fuckers who insists they can get a 2,000 dollar whore for 20 and change.
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compig

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #99 on: April 04, 2009, 02:13:31 PM »
Why be so offensive GF , can't you make your point politely ? Here's a question for you , if Lister's were still in production , would you still buy a new say 8/1 at say £4000 ? Possibly even more , I am being notional on the price but i reckon it would be at least that.
The US members on here would certainly buy genuine old Listers if they find a convenient , reliable and reasonably priced method of shipping from the UK , in lieu of that they buy Listeroids. Not because they are cheap muckers !!
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GuyFawkes

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #100 on: April 04, 2009, 03:14:52 PM »
Why be so offensive GF , can't you make your point politely ? Here's a question for you , if Lister's were still in production , would you still buy a new say 8/1 at say £4000 ? Possibly even more , I am being notional on the price but i reckon it would be at least that.
The US members on here would certainly buy genuine old Listers if they find a convenient , reliable and reasonably priced method of shipping from the UK , in lieu of that they buy Listeroids. Not because they are cheap muckers !!

One man's truth is another man's offence.

I worked it out properly a few years ago and a start-o-matic 6/1 came out at baseline Ford Escort (new) money.

I am glad for you that you think the members of thus forum are not cheap fucks, it must be nice to imagine our Hawaiian member on his yacht (book em dano) and our midwest members on their "allotments the size of surrey" and our canadian members with front lawns that take 2 days to drive over.

Fact is if anyone on here isn't a cheap fuck then they may have signed up but they have never posted.

Here is a clue, if you even ask what airfreight and installation within 48 hours is extra on top of the ticket price, you are a cheap fuck.

I'm cornish, so even the cheap fucks on here can shake their heads and point at me ans say "that guy is a cheap fuck" and be safe from hypocricy.
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AdeV73

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #101 on: April 04, 2009, 09:15:42 PM »

what do you call someone who uses generic condoms?


Dad?

Have to agree with the quality | price | new triangle; being fortunate & in the UK, I can sacrifice "new" & get quality at a bargain price.

And yes, I am a cheap fucker. Dunno where I'd go to get a new, high-quality, slow-running diesel generator which will last another 50 years like I'm sure my 59(!) year old S-o-M will though - any ideas?

GuyFawkes

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #102 on: April 04, 2009, 09:50:25 PM »


And yes, I am a cheap fucker. Dunno where I'd go to get a new, high-quality, slow-running diesel generator which will last another 50 years like I'm sure my 59(!) year old S-o-M will though - any ideas?

#1 - 650 RPM isn't slow running, it is "medium speed"

#2 - building / converting the diesel engine side is actually not that much of a challenge, the difficulty will be in sourcing / building the gen head.

#3 - start-o-matics cost as much as light cars, back when light cars were very rare things indeed, they eventually came down to the price of light cars when light cars were ommon, £10k in today's money.

I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.
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AdeV73

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #103 on: April 04, 2009, 11:08:32 PM »

for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new


Only if I get to name the currency...

Quote

#1 - 650 RPM isn't slow running, it is "medium speed"


Fair comment, but I really don't have the room for a "proper" slow-speed (100-200rpm) diesel. Nor the need, frankly.

Quote

#2 - building / converting the diesel engine side is actually not that much of a challenge, the difficulty will be in sourcing / building the gen head.


Erm, OK. Seriously, who's engine would you use. To be new, it would have to be contemporary. We're looking for somewhere between 5 and 10 HP, or in that ballpark, at around 600-800rpm. My diesel experience is limited (I hate it as a road fuel), but I can't - off the top of my head - think of an engine that fits. 'course, it could be that my desires are outmoded in this throwaway world. After all, a 500cc screamer will produce (lots!) more than 10hp. For a week.

Quote

#3 - start-o-matics cost as much as light cars, back when light cars were very rare things indeed, they eventually came down to the price of light cars when light cars were ommon, £10k in today's money.


I've not seen the price of a new (in the 1950s, say) start-o-matic anywhere. I'd love to know what it cost new.

compig

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Re: Redstone engines
« Reply #104 on: April 04, 2009, 11:25:19 PM »


I've got an unmolested 6/1 2.5 kva start-o-matic out back, for 10k you can have it and I will refurb it literally better than new, in any colour you like, and thow in a remote pan / tilt / zoom webcam and control panel, browser operated.

Would that come with a 100,000 hour warranty ?!
DON'T STEAL , THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T LIKE COMPETITION !!!
Lister A
Onan W3S Genny
Petter A1
Villiers C45 industrial
Continental flat six powerpacket
ANOTHER Lister 6/1 CS SOM , temporarily !!!