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Author Topic: COLD start---  (Read 16741 times)

hotater

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COLD start---
« on: December 07, 2005, 04:18:42 PM »
 This morning at Magic Hot Springs is the coldest I've seen it here, minus 14.8 F as I type.

My Lister is in a small building with two radiators running 105 degree spring water (the idiots that designed the place COULD have run the waste well water through the floor, but didn't.).  Up to now the inside has stayed about 55 to 60 degrees and the engine itself, being closer to the open wall, about 45.  This morning the water supply hose was frozen and the crankcase was 37 degrees.  I was a little doubtful this morning's start would be as carefree as the others.

I've pretty well rendered my daily routine down to a system--  Make the first quart cup of coffee by candlelight (idiot designers put no windows or skylights in the kitchen area), then go check the oil on the Lister, squirt a little in the rocker arm hole and look to be sure nothing is obviously wrong.  I  squirt the smallest amount of ether I can manage right through the auto-type air cleaner, open the fuel rack and set the compression release and start cranking with a view towards acclereration THROUGH the third squeak of the injector and flip off the compression release.  It fired and ran this morning on the first stroke just like it has every morning for six months!  Follow through is important!  Some friends are handle shy and want to jump away before the stroke is all the way through...that usually doesn't work.

I'm SMILING!!   I have a hand-cranked engine supplying power the engine heater on the fancy Onan so it'll start this morning!!   You just gotta LOVE it!!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Reno Speedster

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2005, 04:22:36 AM »
Thats nice to hear, I have been giving some thought to installing a glow plug in the big plug in the head for realy cold starts.  My engine will be in a seperate and non heated generator shed in rural Nevada where it can get into  the minus numbers.  George was tinkering with this idea a while back  I seem to recall.  Wonder how it worked?


Morgan

hotater

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2005, 06:29:36 AM »
I heard just yesterday that there's a kit available to turn a 'Cold Start' into a 'Frigid Start' Listeroid.  That'll be very handy in a place without heat.

  Today I nailed the edges of the tarp down on the opening and stuffed a big rag in a hole under the door.  It's now five below and sinking on a howling wind.  Tonight I'll let the Lister run all night to keep the heat going in the building and to keep from things freezing up in the pumphouse.  I don't want to set any cold start records in the morning.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Copybell

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2005, 11:39:44 AM »
Jack,
   Do you find the need to use either on every start, or just when it is really cold?
   You remimd me of a book I read (One Man's Wilderness) about Dick Proenneke who built a cabin using simple hand tools in the Twin Lakes region of Alaska.  He did it all by himself and without the aid of electricity.  Anyhow, you are all by yourself and isolated and in the cold which is what brought the book to mind.  Dick Proenneke recorded temperatures as low as -48 degrees.  He lived in his cabin for 35 years and now it is part of the National Park service.

Best regards,

Clifford Myers
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Fuking brand 6/1
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quinnf

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2005, 04:00:13 PM »
Jack, wonder if a shot of propane down the beast's gullet would help wake it up on a chilly morning. 

Reno Speedster

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2005, 02:46:13 AM »
Well, on a tip from "hotater" I talked to George and he just came out with a glow plug unit for the listeroid, so I bought the first one.  Which makes me a "beta tester"  according to George.  We will see how it works when the engine gets back together.  That should do the trick in cold weather. 


Morgan

hotater

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2005, 04:01:16 AM »
Copybell--
  The ONLY time my engine failed to start on the first compression stroke was when the head temperature was below 50 degrees. It fired on the second or third stroke then(just before I had one) and ran but it was protesting.  I tried WD-40, but found the volitiles must hang up in the air cleaner.  It's a pain to have to pull the cleaner to start EVERY morning....this is a little more than a hobby, here.  :) 
    The ether goes well through the air cleaner and I've never heard a knock UNLESS I release the valve too soon.  THREE fires of the injector before a compression stroke must dampen the ether some and reduce it's ability to stretch parts.  It chugs to full rpm in three seconds or so without fail, period.
     I have one breaker that runs about 300 watts of lights that I flip within a few seconds of startup.  Just a little load helps the exhaust clear up faster and it settle down to work.  Four more breakers, in the main building, lead to recepticals that various loads are plugged into by short cords taken from the main breaker panel.  (I *can* expain what I did if anyone wants to know)

  I usually let the engine run for three minutes or so then put the heaviest load it's going to take all day on it.  That's the chest freezer that pegs the Kill-a-Watt when it first starts up.  It needs all the help it can get to start, but drops down to the 375 watt range once going.  Then I add in the computer room which has a small camper fridge to the circuit and can hear the Lister change tone again....a little louder and more work-like.  The next two circuits are light-weights and don't add anything to the engine tone until I start a drill press or small compressor.   I don't see exhaust smoke until after the (cheaper built than normal) ST head starts to buzz with overload.

Quinn--  Propane would probably work, but as long as the ether is so dependable and easy I'll keep using it.   I  DO want to do a propane injector system on mine.  I have gas piped to within a couple feet already.

I find my desire to experiment declines with temperatures and the realization of my dependance on reliability.  :-\

We need a report on the glow plug....the actual effort to turn the crank is NOT the problem with cold starting, just the firing of the fuel in a cold chamber.  I bet ten seconds of glow plug will light it off like its in Bombay in July!
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

quinnf

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2005, 05:11:57 AM »


Interesting, the idea of the glow plug.  Wonder if some use could be made of that big square-head plug on the side of the head.  Drill and tap it to take a common glow plug, for a VW diesel or something.  Might also be room there to tap it for a fuel injector for propane boost, too, though you wouldn't want to run propane and the glow plug at the same time!  Hey, you could also tap for a small skinny spark plug, and make it start on gas, then switch to dizzle.  No, the plug would foul in five minutes.  Glow plug could be powered by a small 12V battery which could also power a light in the shed while cranking, then recharge from the mains.   :)

Ether is scary stuff; tends to explode rather than burn when ignited, that's why I suggested propane.  If  WD40 on the air filter doesn't work, Gumout Carburetor Cleaner might.  It's about the same as gasoline, throws a flame much farther from a lit match.  I'm not advocating doing this, you understand.  Don't try this at home.  Professional driver on a closed course.  Your mileage may vary.  Offer void where prohibited. 

q. 





Reno Speedster

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2005, 06:36:57 AM »
Quinn:
   Your right on track mate.  George's glow plug is a replacement for the big plug in the side of the head and it runs off of a 12 volt source.  I'm planning on installing a 12 volt light system in the gen shed (so I can have alittle light when I go out to start the beast) with a switch for the glow plug.  I would prefer to have a solar charge system for it so I don't have to hook up an automotive charge system which would just be another load on the engine but we will see.

Morgan

quinnf

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2005, 02:58:49 PM »
Ok, that must be one of the projects that keeps him so busy.  Didn't know he was working on that. 

For recharging the battery I was thinking more along the lines of a battery trickle charger running off the 110/220 output of the genny.  That way, since you have long run times, a slow trickle charge will replace what you used at startup.  No 12V alternator or regulation needed that way.  That would be simpler and a whole lot cheaper than going solar.

q.


hotater

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2005, 06:41:56 PM »
I can say from experience that a 19 watt solar panel with five hours of sun won't keep up the battery on my 15Kw Onan.  I've got my only charger on it now.

RV shops and your local Interstate Battery store have all sorts of battery maintenence and charging options.  A whole armful of small trickle chargers would be one of the handiest things around for off-grid by genset living.  That's on my wish list along with more inverters.  It would be very easy to change all the small loads needed in a house to be run from dual sources automaticaly.  Think of a TV/VCR plugged into an inverter which is powered by a deep cycle battery that's charged when the generator is running by the trickle charger.
 I run a radio once in a while with an old computer UPS used about the same way.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

Reno Speedster

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2005, 05:48:16 PM »
I am quite interested in being able to charge a battery bank from the generatpr however, the science of charging is a little more complicated than I origionally thought.    My eventual goal is to run a solar, wind and generator setup.  The solar and wind will handel the daily charge for the battery bank through one of the new computer controlled battery charger / inverter pannels.  These insure that the bank is charged appropriatly (evidently there are three phases of battery charging which require slightly different electrical feeds) and inssure \ a much longer life for the batterys (not a big deal on your car where the battery is $60 but a real important thing in a solar setup with $1,000 + in batteries).   The Gen set will be available as a back-up when the sun does not shine and the wind does not blow (not a comman occurance arround here, when its not sunny its usually windy and its windy quite a bit when the sun shines!) and to provide 220 to the shop.  All of this is for a little farther down the line.  Right now the Gen set is all that I have (mostly because I'm not at the ranch that often yet and I can use it when I need it the turn it off.

As for the 12 volt system in the shed, that is only intended to power the glow plug and the lights long enough to start the engine.  A trickle charger would work fine to keep it in trim but, do these things monitor the battery charge and turn off or will they cook the battery if left on?  I was thinking about an automotine alternator and a voltage regulator which would switch off when the battery is fully charged.  Or, as mentiond, put a small solar pannel on the roof to charge the battery.  They are pretty cheap these days and the drain on the battery would be pretty minimal, but again I don't know if these pannels switch of when the battery is fully charged.   If anyone has any good ideas on this I would love to hear them.


Morgan

rgroves

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2005, 06:24:16 PM »
Quick note on solar panels here.  They will keep charging a battery as long as their voltage is higher than the battery.  But the problem with a direct connection is that the solar panel is a semi-conductor, and it will draw some battery power when there's no sunlight.  So you can end up discharging the battery overnight or on a cloudy day.

I recommend using a charge controller, which tapers the charge to match the phases of battery charging and disconnects them when the panels aren't making power any more.  You can find a decent controller for under $100.  They're rated in maximum amps and system voltage, so if you spend the extra bucks for higher amp capacity you can grow your PV array as you wish.

A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.

hotater

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2005, 06:52:38 PM »
  My solar panel is said  to have a diode in the line.  Does that prevent discharging over night?  I hope so.

I REALLY wish I could get my mind wrapped around electricity, but it seems to be in the same category as Leftist politics....I just can't understand the reasoning behind it.
7200 hrs on 6-1/5Kw, FuKing Listeroid,
Currently running PS-Kit 6-1/5Kw...and some MPs and Chanfas and diesel snowplows and trucks and stuff.

rgroves

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Re: COLD start---
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2005, 07:49:52 PM »
Yes, if there's a blocking diode in the panel you'll be fine.  And if it's a small panel, not much concern about overcharging.

Re electricity vs leftist politics - a few fundamental differences might be helpful.

Electricity is based on physical principles, and the rules make sense. So it's worth trying to understand at some point.
A country boy can survive - Hank Williams Jr.