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Author Topic: My new engine room!  (Read 48485 times)

billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2009, 02:07:42 AM »
Hello SteveU

Thanks for the vote of confidence! My system has 100 hours on it now, but I am afraid I am sensing a bit of back pressure from a carboned up exhaust heat exchanger. I am going to be busy for the next 2 days so rodding out the carbon may have to wait. I am sure it will be a messy job. Oh well! :( :(

Billswan   
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2009, 04:40:04 AM »
Jens

The tubes in my exchanger are about the size of a small rifle. Both I and my brother were thinking .22 caliber bronze rifle or pistol cleaning brushes.  A few days ago when I installed the muffler between the engine and the exchanger the tubes were dirty on the input end. Now late today I could sense some back pressure in the muffler, it has a small seam leak that sizzled pretty good for a while before the whole system got up to temp after a start up. The exhaust is more steady outside , not the puff puff of a clean system. The  back pressure is causing that I think. Problems problems problems will they ever end!!! :( :( :(

billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2009, 01:19:37 PM »
Jens

You ask the question "How much buildup did you have on the input end when you installed the muffler" I also did not measure but just the quick look with a flashlight in the input end said trouble is brewing. Could be the muffler is cooling the input gasses enough to make the problem worse. But had to have the muffler at that point, if I put it out side it would ice up on a cold day for sure! In the next day or two I will be installing a back pressure gauge will report back with a pix of the clean out when it happens.

I wounder if injecting a couple of gallons of hot water into a running heat exchangers intake exhaust stream every couple of days to try to flush it would help or would be just a waste of plumbing and time? :-\ :-\

Billswan

16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

SteveU.

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2009, 05:44:46 PM »
Jens and Billswan
A standard mechanical pressure guage will carbon/soot/plug up if put into an diesel exhaust stream. On the GEK wood gasifiers Marcus and I have they discovered this with the starting up and shutting down smoky gasses and changed over from a dial/gauge to a water manometer. Very simple: just some clear vinyl tubing in a U shape plugged in with a pipe to barb fitting and filled with water against a yard stick. You can see both gauges pictured at:
http://gekgasifier.pbwiki.com/
Determine a clean exhaust Water Column in inches/MM and decide by decrease in engine performance a cleaning needed point ( exhaust back pressure will push the measured side WC up higher on the scale).

Regards
SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
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SteveU.

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2009, 06:08:38 PM »
Jens
If you use a mechanical gauge plumb to a remote small jar/container to act as a water trap and pickup the pressure reading at the top. The exhaust condensation ( the byproduct of good combustion) is acidic enough that it will corrode the brass works in the gauge. A screen might be OK, but a filter will get wet and block the measured pressure.

SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
 Electrodyne 12vdc. AC MeccAlte 8.5kw
John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2009, 04:06:57 AM »
Hello SteveU

yes I am familiar with home made manometer, as a farmer we use them to test for backpressure on grain bin fans more than 2 or 3 inches of water column and the air moving ability of some axial fans really drop off.

Thanks for the heads up on the plugging of common pressure gauges.

I read your post 2 hours ago, but I still went out and installed a regular pressure gauge for a quick test of the back pressure.

After install I ran the engine for a few minutes and had a PSI reading of about 4 to 4.5. The gauge is an old 30 psi one that is of questionable condition and accuracy so I won't lose anything if it plugs or melts.

So anyone know how much water column would be displaced by 4 to 5 psi ?

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2009, 01:04:50 PM »
Jens

The test port I drilled is about 1 inch before the input to the heat exchanger. Yes the gauge is questionable condition but it is a starting point of the investigation. The 27 inches of water column per psi  doesn't surprise me I was just to lazy to look it up.

One 90 degree and one about 30 degree bend after the heat exchanger.

Yes it is a pulse that would be hard to accurately measure.

I will put the same gauge after the heat ex. today but my gut tells me it will test 0

billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

lowspeedlife

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2009, 11:41:24 PM »
That's a pretty sad excuse for a gun shop if he doesn't have a .30 caliber brush since it's the most popular bullet size in existance. there are lots of places on line you can try, Gander Mountian, Bass Pro Shops, The Sportsman's Guide, Etc. (notice i spelled it right Bob) you can get a brush in stainless (i would not recomend it) or one in .31 caliber for a british .303 enfield rifle (real size is .31 cal). for your copper tube experiment you could also flare the end & ream it on the inside edge to make a scraping edge on it.being copper it would not damage your tubes. If you are affraid of the carbon clogging the tube brush it with a .22 caliber, or .25 caliber first, blow it thru then use your .30/.31 caliber brush.

   Scott R.
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billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2009, 01:47:17 AM »
Wow lots of posts since I checked in a few hours ago. Well I put the same pressure gauge on the down stream side of the heat ex. and my gut was right it don't budge, no pressure there. The omega has been running for 4 hours now I think i will go out and swap the gauge to the hot end for a few minutes to see if it still has the same pressure as it did cold.

I will take a pix for you jens and post it in a couple hours with the size of the heat ex. ;D

Billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

mobile_bob

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2009, 02:10:06 AM »
i don't have a clue what the insulating qualities of carbon might be, but

according to detroit diesel, 1/16" of scale buildup on a cylinder liner has the same insulating quality of 4" of cast iron.

thats quite a bit in my opinion.

if carbon is anything close to that, the efficiency of heat recovery would fall off a cliff.

bob g
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
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billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2009, 04:23:08 AM »
Hello jens and everyone

here is the pix



And here is a link to the larger version  http://listerenginegallery.com/main.php?g2_itemId=1032

The gauge in the position in the pix is now clear up to 4 to 8 psi when the engine is running hot and with 4000+ watt load.
You can tell there is back pressure as every little leak show ( 2 that I know of) black exhaust smoke at heavy load.
The engine labors to get up to full speed.

I guess tomorrow is the day for me to get messy! :( :(

The tube sheet is a 5 inch circle and it has a 19.5 inch tube length. A lot smaller than yours but I have only one lung breathing through it. Even though it is getting gunked up it still has plenty of capacity to get the heat.

Oh 1 reason it is plugging up so fast is I have run with no injector heat and mostly straight waste oil for the last 100 hours.
And the temp of the water going into the heat exchanger is way down to 70 degrees input temp, that sets the unit up for great efficiency but you can see what happens to the carbon it all ends up in the tubes.

I always figured I would have to clean the exchanger often and I guess that is what is going to happen.

If I would replumb the system so the 200 degree water out of the engine thermostat would go into the heat exchanger first so the exhaust leaving the heat exchanger would then be over 200 degrees I am sure there would be less plugging with gunk but the efficiency would drop so.........................

one other thing I have forgot to mention the heat exchanger is a 3 pass not a single pass like yours jens. I may have to modify it like you did yours, to get to 1 pass.
billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

Geno

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2009, 12:41:20 PM »
Now that we’re completely off topic here’s what I do to clean my heat-ex. Mine is installed vertically. I built a short wand for my pressure washer. I keep the pressure as low as possible and stick the tip in each tube for a second or 2. Works great unless you miss a tube and hit the area in between. Then it’s a big mess.

Thanks, Geno

billswan

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 05:02:13 PM »
Now that we’re completely off topic here’s what I do to clean my heat-ex. Mine is installed vertically. I built a short wand for my pressure washer. I keep the pressure as low as possible and stick the tip in each tube for a second or 2. Works great unless you miss a tube and hit the area in between. Then it’s a big mess.

Thanks, Geno

Yes jens and I have totally  taken over this thread I hope the powers that be and the doc won't hate us to much.

Checked out your world an looks like you have done a lot of work, that ss heat ex. is huge for a 6/1 how many hours between baths with the pressure washer?

thanks for the heads up on the pressure washing, it worked great am now back to 100% clean exchanger will post some pix later today.

billswan
16/1 Metro  in the harness choking on WMO ash!!

10/1 OMEGA failed that nasty WMO ash ate it

By the way what is your cylinder index?

mobile_bob

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2009, 07:08:40 PM »
here is a thought for a cleaning rod/brush

take a length of speedo cable, and carefully untwist a couple inches
then bend in the sharp ends and rewrap it back again, the result should look like a barrelled out end
that tapers back at the end,,
i would think that this might work without damage to the tubes and be fairly easy to clean as well.
cheap too if you have a section of old speedo cable laying around, even the new cable core kits are pretty cheap

fwiw, truck speedo and tach cables are larger in diameter than pickup and car cables, but iirc they will still fit down the inside
of a quarter inch tube just fine.

one might even use a variable speed drill to spin the cable a bit to further scrub the innards of a tube,

just a thought.

also for those that might be interested i have a design and built one to fit my changfa 195 that so far after maybe 25 hours
of mixed fuels use has proven to be self cleaning, it manages to drop the exhaust temps from 640F input to 225F ouput
which scavenges most of the available heat without condensing for the most part. it self cleans at each cold start up on its own.

i have been considering drawing up the plans, theory of operation, a bill of materials and offer it for a modest cost to cover
the expense of producing the document, maybe 10 bucks or so, maybe a bit more depending on costs to produce.

it can be scaled to any engine size, and the materials are commonly available stuff, the skills required to assemble are modest,
requireing a bit of welding but not much, certainly something a 120volt mig from harbor freight would handle just fine.

it also does a very good job lowering the db level as well, and
in preliminary tests my fuel consumption per kwatt/hr produced decreased ~3% under that of the original changfa muffler
(can't say if that is because it is so good, or if the oem changfa muffler is restrictive)

to my knowlege there is no other exchanger that works on this principle, the one i built is approx 36" long and was built for less than
75bucks in about an hour.

if there is sufficient interest i will put together an info kit on the exchanger and offer it to the group.

i guess it will come down to whether one can make a compromise of not being able to get the last few btu's with the ability to
not have to clean the thing as being worthwhile. according to my calc's it is approx 75% efficient at harvesting the available heat
from the 195 changfa exhaust, the numbers were checked by a thermal engineer.
otherpower.com, microcogen.info, practicalmachinist.com
(useful forums), utterpower.com for all sorts of diy info

mbryner

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Re: My new engine room!
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2009, 07:58:27 PM »
Actually I find it quite amusing how the threads on this forum sort of take on a life of their own.   But what does it matter?!  :)

Hey, a self cleaning heat exchanger for a good price?  I want one!  My propane tank muffler works pretty good but a heat exchanger would be even better.   Every time I look for one on ebay or ??, they are so expensive.   Simple welding?  I can figure it out w/ some friend's help.  My F-I-L left his buzz-box last time he was up here....   

Marcus
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