New guy!

[piperpilot3tk]

Hello all, I have been researching listeroids for about a year and a half and I think I am about to pull the trigger.  My plan is to get a 12-1 and set it up in my attached garage for standby use. In a few years when I build my new house I will build the beast it's own building as I have plenty of land to do it on there, but for now I am living in the burbs. The reason that I am looking at a 12-1 is that I want to be able to run the whole house and the A/C (5 ton that draws around 19 amps when its running).  I think I can do it with 6.5 to 7Kw if I load shed the water heater. Does this sound reasonable or is this being too optimistic?  I am an aircraft mechanic among other things and I think I have the mechanical ability to do a tear down on a new listeroid and get it right before I put it in service, so that will be the plan. I have many questions and am thrilled to have a place to talk to people who have been there and done it already, and look forward to learning from all of you!

[Stan]

Welcome!  What do we call you?  Your avatar name is way too long to type in each time.  What area of the world are you in?  Burbs is pretty vague, maybe there's someone living near you to share face to face stuff with.  It really helps when you can attach a face to the written word. 
Stan

[piperpilot3tk]

My name is Mike and I live in the Savannah Ga area.

[piperpilot3tk]

Jens, I have read several places that the 12-1 will pull 6.5-7 Kw continously.  Is this not the case? And what do you mean by "no reserve" I thought that a roid would take a large surge load such as starting an A/C unit with relative ease. A 16-1 would be good but from what I have read and seen pictures of the 16-1 metro I have not been impressed with the quality, but this is not a first hand observation.  Does anyone else make a 16-1?

[Wizard]

500W tv?  Largest commerical TV maybe.  Consumer not.

The highest I can see is plamsa at largest size (like 60") is typically 440W or so.

Lowest watts for biggest possible is LED backlit LCD, bit higher is LED DLP.

Even the external projection (3 CRT projection) TV still does not go above 300Wish.

Cheers, Wizard

[Wizard]

Jens, if you have model number, I could look up to be certain?   I haven't seen like that high.

Cheers, Wizard

[Stan]

Mike...I believe what Jens was talking about in "reserve" is that after you take the 2hp / kw rule, you have to subtract losses due to belts, friction, altitude (although this probably wouldn't be a factor in GA I'm at 4000') and there have been several posts lately describing the density of air at higher temps.  A Cessna 150 will climb like a rocket (well, almost) at temps below zero, but try and get her off the ground on a really hot summer's day, whew!).  This affects the hp of diesels.

The mass of the flywheels will allow for extra power when needed but it only exists for seconds, then the engine will bog down.

Jens is right, if you want 7kw on a regular ongoing basis, you probably need more than 12 hp.
Stan

[oliver90owner]

piperpilot3tk

First, welcome to the forum.

To your ratings.  The 2HP per kW is a general rule.  It does not apply to high-power direct drive generators as much.  Yours is not in that bracket.

IF the HP IS 12 then that means the efficiency is nigh on 80% for conversion of mechanical to electric.  Pretty impressive.

IF there are no more spare horses hiding in the cupboard that might mean operating for long periods at maximum output.  This is far from an ideal situation unless you have a spare for the inevitable downtime due to engine failure (in one form or another).

Some engines are conservatively rated, with the one-hour or six-hour overload rating factored easily within the engine's capability.  Personally, I would not want to exceed 90% continuous for an engine of this type.

In the 1940s Lister matched their 6/1 to a 2.5kW generator.  They rarely failed because it was conservatively rated, 55% electrical load of the available mechanical.  That sort of rating would equate to 5kW for a 12HP.  And you are indicating approx 40% more might be expected?  Yes the SOM would easily carry a short term load of 3kW(?).  That might be the extra 1kW, making 6kW, for the 12 HP.

OK, things have changed a little over the years but if there are any other losses (battery charging, cooling fans, pumps), these can quickly alter a rating from conservative to marginal.  The SOM did have a charging circuit built into the set.

I think either the ratings are wrong or your expectations are just a tad too excessive.

Regards, RAB

[piperpilot3tk]

Thanks for the replies, all of you are probably right, I may be expecting a little too much.  As a pilot and aircraft owner I am well familiar with density altitude and dont think it will affect me here too much (density alt here in the hottest part of the summer is a little over 2000 Ft.) I see what jens was talking about in respect to reserve, I was thinking about surge load.  I cannot aford a twin, nor do I think I really want one..... so I guess I will just have to compensate. Part of getting the wife on board is the ability to run the A/C after an outage...but 

[t19]

I have a 10/1 with a 7 KVA head.  It runs my whole house with power to spare.

That includes all the 4 TV.s the new High eff washer and dryer, the micro, the well pump, the two sump pumps the furnace and in the summer the AC... Plus I have an electric hot water tank (soon to be replaced with a gas On-demand type)

Most of your devices are over rated and don't burn nearly as much... you would be wise to get a Kill-o-meter and actually measure the usage of the devices you want to keep up.

I think you will find a unit like mine more than adequate for your use, yeah it spins at 1000 rpm, but thats still pretty slow

[cujet]

Hi Mike!

I have a 20/2. It's fun to play with, but I don't see it a a good choice, for anything. If I were to do it again, I would do exactly what Bob (rocketboy) did with his 6/1. He "uprated" it a little bit by running it at 730RPM, balanced it and made it portable. It makes 4600 watts max and is comfortable at 4000 watts. The little 6/1 is quiet, smooth and reliable. It's my opinion that anytime you stray from the original 6/1 you sacrifice what makes the lister great.

If you need more power, there are commercial gensets that will work far better. I wish I had purchased a commercial genset for high power times and a 6/1 for extended outages.

One thing to consider, generators are very expensive to run. At 3 bucks a gallon and 15 gallons per day, running a 10,000 watt diesel costs $1,350 per month. Contrast that with a 6/1 at just a few gallons per day (with low load). What happens with extended power outages is that one runs out of fuel, or rather the money for the fuel (ask me how I know, 3 hurricanes with direct hits). That means periods of time where the generator does not run, the fridge gets warm and the TV does not work. Not ideal IMHO.

That, in my opinion is the beauty of the Listeroid 6/1. Extended use with low consumption and very reliable, low stress operation.

Chris

[xyzer]

  I cannot aford a twin, nor do I think I really want one..... so I guess I will just have to compensate. Part of getting the wife on board is the ability to run the A/C after an outage...but 

Mike,
Wait for a long outage and suffer the suffering then when it is over you can get what you want!  I had to deal with the no power in a very cold situation. What did I learn?....do I want a backup that takes over like nothing has happened? For me that would be one big unit! When you have no grid power 3000 watts is lots of power compared to nothing! If I can pump water to flush toilets run a few lights run the pellet stove or oil forced air give the freezers some time I can keep the other half sorta happy. I have to time share my power but I have power. I am planning for the BIG off grid not the inconvient one and fuel will be an issue after a month or so and in my reality it has been a fun project that maybe someday I might get to really use.  One might consider a small window AC and just keep one room happy? I guess alot depends on why we do this. Some are in Hurricane country and will probably need it for a week and that is why they own it. Some live on islands with poor utilty companies. Some are just plain off grid and want to keep it that way. Some (like me) just like screwing with things and use the power outage as an excuse to play Don't forget the fuel factor....big KW=big tank.
Dave

Hi Mike!

That, in my opinion is the beauty of the Listeroid 6/1. Extended use with low consumption and very reliable, low stress operation.

Chris

That is my thinking also!
Dave 

[piperpilot3tk]

Jens, I am not "down on the twins" I just feel, like QJET, that a good used commercial diesel would fill the bill better for a continous large load and be cheaper and easier in the long run.  Maybe not as cool but easier none the less.

QJET, I totally agree that the 6-1 is the coolest and it is quieter than say a 12-1, but the SFC for the 6-1 and 12-1 is the same.  So doing the same amount of work (read loaded) they should burnthe same amount of fuel for the same amount of work being performed.  I know that at a really small load the 6-1 would beat it in economy.  What I am trying to do (again trying is the operative word) is to have something that COULD just about run everything if I run it hard, and still have something that will still loaf along and not use too much fuel.  As far as making it "portable" goes if i wanted portable I would go buy a little gas unit.  Rocketboys portable set-up is way cool for balancing props at the field, but I have more power than you can shake a stick at in my hangar.  By the way, maybe you could fly up and balance my listeroid and my plane some day with your ACES box?

Mike

[SteveU.]

Hello piper/mike

I am a 12/1 owner.  The 12/1, 14/1, 16/1 and the larger twins all use a non Lister designed 130MM/5.12" Indian only big, heavy, cast iron piston. The biggest overbore the Indians could stuff into the cylinder case for us demanding Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders. This results in about 3-4 times the hopity-hop energy. The 6/1, 8/1 and 10/1 owners all say the words quiet, pleasant, ok ect.  Us big bore owners don't say much except maybe "different kind of beast". With the best balancing and massdampening mounting there will ground shake/thumping noticable 50-200 feet away. Not something for an urban/suburban lot. Mine is 150 feet from the house on 20 acres of land.
Read the posts of member jpkull about his fathers 12/1.  They are within 300 miles of you, see if you can arraign a visit before you make an emotional/financial commitment.

Regards
SteveU.

[cschuerm]

I realize that this is a very subjective topic, but I'll toss in my two cents worth.
I have two twins and I'm very glad I made that decision.  My goal was not to be off grid, but have a hobby project which could substantially power my entire house if needed.  My rig has kept living conditions "modern" through two major week+ long ice storms, one two day mid-summer outtage, and has provided construction power for my new house project for 3 months of all-day running.  When you live in an area with 100+F summer temperatures, A/C may be just as important as heat is other places.  For that, you need more than a 6/1.  While I agree that a quality commercial genset would be the wise way to go, my roid has served both the functional purpose and supplied the hobby enjoyment requirement.

cheers,
Chris