Grid tied inverter driven directly from generator

[carlb23]

I live in New Jersey and we do have net metering here .  I have a 10kw solar array and a 1.8kw wind turbine that are both grid tied.  The wind turbine generates 3pahase wild ac and it is rectified to dc then inverted back to standard split phase 240VAC all through an approved inverter.  The 10kw of solar generate high voltage DC which is then inverted to split phase 240 AC through approved inverters.  In both cases these inverters will not function when the grid is down and that is by design and it is the law.  You can not backfeed the grid without approved equipment that has been properly permitted and inspected.  You will also have to provide to the utility a signed (MAKING YOU LEGALLY RESPONSIBLE) interconnect form that lists the information about the equipment that you wish to connect to "THEIR" grid.

I have my lister for backup power generation only and have no need to interconnect it to the grid. I use a Siemens 60 amp manual transfer switch that will allow me to switch up to 16 circuits from the grid to the generator as needed. 

You can tell me all you like about interconnecting to the grid and net metering and I can tell you that I have been there done that and have dealt with the utility company the local building inspectors and the local and state electrical inspectors.  THEY WILL NEVER LET YOU TAKE YOUR GENERATOR NO MATTER WHAT TYPE IT IS AND CONNECT IT DIRECTLY TO THE GRID VIA A CIRCUIT BREAKER IN YOUR PANEL BOX. NO AND'S IFS OR MAYBES.

The only way to legally connect to the grid is through approved equipment that MUST disconnect from the grid in the event of a grid failure.


Carl

[lowspeedlife]

Thank you Carl, that's all i was saying.

[Roark]

From the viewpoint of someone who spends much of his life in court, let me give you a more "legal" picture of what Herr Maul is doing:

1).  The net has a very long memory.  Were something to happen as a result of his tamperings, count on this entire thread getting into evidence.  (I know *I* sure as heck would be beating him with it if I was prosecuting a wrongful death/injury case!)
2).  At least in Texas, homeowners insurance won't cover "intentional acts".  "Negligence" is covered, but "knowing conduct" gets you to "intentional acts", which is very specifically not covered.  (In Maul's case, I'd be arguing "malice", or "reckless indifference", which not only nullifies any possible insurance coverage, it trips-open the door to punitive damages).  So understand that any damages awarded, be they property damage, wrongful death claims, etc, come directly from his own pocket. 
3).  A very basic defense for Maul in a *civil* case will run about $15K to $30K.  Assuming he did win, the judge may or may NOT (more likely) allow him to claim attorneys fees.  For a good lawyer, you could easily double this number.
4).  A very basic defense in a *criminal* case would run about $25K to 50K.  For a top-notch lawyer, you can again double that number. Win/Lose/Draw, he's gonna spend this, and it comes right out of his own pocket.  Or he can get a court-appointed attorney... which basically means he's going to jail.
5).  In either case, you're looking at adding another 5K for a testifying expert, which in a case like this, would be a requirement if you wanted to have ANY chance of winning.  )FWIW, finding a degreed professional engineer who is willing to say "connecting a generator directly to the grid with only a breaker for a protective device is actually a standard practice, routinely done, permitted by code, and constitutes a safe and orderly manner of intertie" will be a stretch.  You're gonna need a lot more dead presidents to get him to say this with a straight face to the jury).

As a practical matter, the question really boils-down to this:  Does Maul feel confident enough in his position that generating fifty cents per hour of generational offet revenue looks attractive compared to incurring $25K to $100K worth of attorneys/experts fees? (Put it another way: Assuming Maul has free fuel, no maint expenses, and in fact has no expenses whatsoever, it's still gonna take him in excess of TEN YEARS of co-generation time (24/7/365 running) just to pay a middle-of-the-pack attorney).

As a professional matter, I would be very happy to take his money.  As a personal matter, I'm rather repulsed by his assertion that a $5 breaker would be an acceptable subsitute for the proper paralleling switchgear and necessary control logic.

Roark

[Dail R H]

   How come the grid didn't destroy his generator when he hooked to the grid? Did he just get lucky and happen to be in sync?I don't understand.

[LowGear]

Yes!  I agree with Dail R H. 

How come there wasn't any smoke and that special too hot of wire smell?

Casey

[lowspeedlife]

In fairness.... if you connect your genny to the grid without the benefit of an inverter, it will be synchronised -- very forcibly, and to the detrimental health of both genny and engine.

As for the legal aspect - I'd be gobsmacked if it's not illegal in almost every country, let alone against any powerco's rules.

 I also believe this to be true

[msdmaule]

Was never coming back here again but the misinformation goes on. Where I am located Net Metering is 100% legal no Inverter. Power Co. say I need a lock out box at Gen set so they can lockout tag out my system .As for the law been to court few times , no lawyer never lost yet, lucky I guess.     Any way here is a small test you be the Judge. On these two cases.   

 1]  Me want to buy gun Government say 100 % legal.
 2]  Me want to net meter Government and Power co. say 100% legal.

 1]  Me go Wmart to buy gun, employee at counter say, you SHOULD  take safety course ,  but Me say Me to smart Me just buy gun go home. 
 2]  Me go Power co .need job, Power co. say you WILL DO 6 week safety course on lock ,tag ,out. But Me Smart, climb pole now  . Power co. say you take safety course or you go home.   

 1]  Me take gun home no safety course, Me point gun at hand think gun not loaded , Me pull trigger Me lose hand Me want to SUE gun manufacturer. for $1,000,000,000.00     
 2]  Me take safety course and climb pole on third shift Me tired, me not  LOCK OUT TAG OUT Gen set at Msdmaules house me lose hand me want SUE Msdmaule. for $ 1000,000,000.00   

  Now I don't know how you judge these two cases but if I am the judge there is going to be guns and may be maybe few POOR Me to smart one arm guy's. But maybe I' am just TWISTED.
















































































 
 

[mike90045]

WOW can support your findings with legal or logic ,the power co.  in my area has what is know as net metering .Net metering states you can legally supply power back to the grid on a annual basis so it is not illegal , and on the other point of safety if utility power goes out and a 5k gen set can supply my power needs and 140000 other customers without blowing a 40amp breaker then I am buying two gen sets and starting my own utility co. As I stated on my earlier post I contacted my utility co. I tried/ begged to a tech person on the phone. Most states have net metering I believe this is the best rout to peruse if you have a gen set, as you use the grid as a battery this way you don't have to generate all your power all the time and you get credits not money on over produced power.           

I have net metering on my 5.6KW of solar, but it goes thru a UL certified inverter w/auto disconnect.  Had to pass city inspection and Edison inspection. Only approved devices can grid intertie. If line power is lost, my system shuts down, and my 5.6KW of solar becomes inert, until grid comes back up. (I can McGiver around it with 400V-48V DC-Dc converters). It seems quite unusual to have a generator be UL certified to intertie.

[oliver90owner]

OK, you made your analogy.

I still think, forget the hand, you shot yourself in the foot.

RAB

[nobby]

Sorry but since when has an alleged lack of evidence of somebody dying on a wire been a satisfactory argument for just arbitarily plugging into the grid or in fact plugging in and staying plugged in without following proper procedure?  That's just foolish logic in my book.

Therein lies the point its not a case of whether you can back feed the grid or not, but that you need to follow the procedures/applications laid out by the utility company which do indeed vary from state to state, do it legitamately.  Which in the initial posts were not done he just supposedly plugged in!!!

Secondly and as equally important as already stated is SYCHRONISATION.  Now if he did indeed plug in and not fry the genset then he must of hit lucky and plugged in during the window when the genset was close to synch.  As I understand it from paralleling ships gensets with a synch meter there is a small window around the synch point where you can flip the breaker and the major power source (in this case the grid) will safely force the generator into synch.  Miss it and in the case of a true paralleling setup the breaker will not switch, in this case miss it and a short is created and sparks should fly.


Re the original question seems as though initially good input has been given, my only comment being that IIRC certain utilities etc do not allow grid tie with battery systems and can only be off-grid only.  This may of changed though as I learnt this on a PV net metering course several years ago.

Cheers
Nobby

[LowGear]

Obviously some of don’t understand the principles of a contract or, perhaps, reading past the paragraph heading.

In the US you can legally buy a rifled firearm if you jump through all the hoops just as you can legally net meter if you jump through all the hoops.  In the US this power of the state comes from the concept of “Public Health and Welfare.  This suggests social conscientiousness and a moral commitment to the community.  This sometimes too tall of wall is what keeps us safe most of the time.  For the other part of our lives we are just hanging it out and hoping for the best.  Both parts are necessary but please let me chose my hang time.

I often see cars go by that I wonder if the brakes are working this week, I am sometimes passed by cars that I’m very grateful they are now ahead of me and I even see cars going down the street in such a manner that I wonder who started the car for the driver that is now behind the wheel.  Yes! You can drive a car but there are certain hoops that should be respected for the benefit of society.  And YES! This makes the 13 year old genetic matter in my brain recoil in shock wondering who this person is that is keyboarding at this moment.  It is the morally mature adult male I’ve become.  You are welcome to join the community.

Casey

PS.  Not everyone thinks pigeon is cute when used in a belittling manner.

[geiges]

I,m new hear and after reading this I needed to join.
I worked for a large fab/machine shop in PA this was 13 years ago, thay ran 2 large cat diesel gensets and 1
large inline 8 ford maybe, genset thay feed power to the grid no inverter! I donot know how it was set up
to disconect when line power went down but they were feeding the grid. when power went down we
did not have power .

there are 2 small old mills that I know of that have small terbins in them the one is a mile down the road it is
not in use as of now but I have looked at it and NO inverters.
So It can be done but it shood be done safe to the way the powercomp wants it .
SO CALL YOUR POWER COMP AND ASK THEM.

[lowspeedlife]

Hi Geiges,
 Welcome to the group, glag to have you with us. The generators you speak of most certainly were connected to the grid without inverters, as Jens said this is something that would be used on a home power generation system.  Large comercial generators have electronics installed in them that syncronizes the generator power output to the grid & makes the generators engine run at the speed required to keep them "locked" together, the same electronics disconnects the generator if the grid power fails for whatever reason or the generator could not keep up, say a clogged fuel filter or broken injector, pump or line. These electronics would likely cost several times what our Listeroid generators cost & most likely would not work because the govenors in these engines are not responsive enough to keep the power output syncronized to the grid, so it would be connecting to the grid while the engine was under a low load & nearly as soon disconnect it because of the increased load put on the engine when connected to the grid. So for most of us it is easier to use an inverter that make very clean power & resolves all these other issues, plus in most cases the power company requires us to. again welcome, lots of great people & info here!
                   Scott R.

[capt_bob]

I'm a noob to this forum but and haven't picked up my 6/1 metro yet but I am interested in using it burning free wvo to spin the meter backwards and not so much for backup as it is rare to have an outage in my area. Has anybody looked at this book? 

http://www.eagle-research.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=30

Just wondering if it works. Supposedly if you overspeed an asyncrous induction motor aprox 10 to 18% it will generate electricity and because it needs to be tied to the grid to excite the windings and start (in fact wont work without) , it it will be sync. Also there is mention of some kind of magnetic switch that will cut the connection to the grid if the power goes down.

Anybody

[ronmar]

Yes it works.  Now wether you have the stamina and the resources(money) to jump thru the code and utility requirements to make it happen is the real question...