Author Topic: Which would you choose????  (Read 30882 times)

apogee_man

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2009, 03:29:29 AM »
Just wanted to say thank you to all for the feedback.

At this point, I'm going to think it over.

The points that have been brought up are good ones and well taken.

I'll keep the board posted as things progress.

Regards,

Steve

cujet

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #16 on: January 27, 2009, 04:45:19 PM »
Hello apogee man.

I am Chris, a neighbor/friend of Rocketboy. Here are my thoughts, take them for what they are worth. I own a twin, look at www.cujet.com and I would not do it again. I would do a single.

The twin competes with commercial diesel engines/gensets. And, it does so somewhat poorly. As it burns as much or more fuel and does not last as long and there is no way you can say it's as reliable. You can easily purchase a more reliable, easier to work on, modern engine for about the same price. Even better, you can purchase a diesel genset for less than it may cost you to build your own. Please understand, I like my Listeroid, but I also understand it, clearly.

Bob/Rocketboy has a 6-1 that runs at 730 RPM, which is slightly higher that the standard 600 RPM, and is equipped with electric start. He also has it on a small cart, with pnumatic tires (filled with water). I helped him balance it with our ACES 20-20. It is as smooth a single as I have ever seen. Plus the little bit of extra RPM gives more power than a standard 6-1. Still very slow though.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 01:09:34 AM by cujet »
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Wizard

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #17 on: January 27, 2009, 11:37:44 PM »
rocketboy had his set up videotaped.  What about your running balanced listeroid twin on video?

Cheers, Wizard

cujet

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2009, 12:57:36 AM »
It's on video on rocketboy's site somewhere. I'll try to find it.

On this page is Rocketboy's single with Me using the 20-20 to balance it. I have my hand on top of the engine with the sensor in hand. http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister10.html


Here are some pics of my twin and a video of it running at the bottom of the page. http://www.f1-rocketboy.com/lister%20series%202%20page%201.html

Chris
« Last Edit: January 28, 2009, 01:03:06 AM by cujet »
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Wizard

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2009, 01:54:29 AM »
Cujet,

The bottom link that was supposed to show twin running is actually stop motion of your head.

Cheers, Wizard

cujet

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2009, 04:54:47 AM »
That video is exceedingly slow to load. I suggest you try again, wait 1/2 hour. Then try playing. You can do other computer things while loading. The slowness is not on your end.

I sure am ugly, huh?

Chris
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Wizard

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2009, 04:43:26 PM »
Hahaha.  Will do, will let it sit forever till finally loaded.

CuJet is very nice looking really!

Cheers, Wizard

SteveU.

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2009, 01:19:13 AM »
Pretty is as pretty does.
Anyone who can crank over one of these beasts to start isn't ugly.

SteveU.
Use it up. Wear it out. Make Do, or Do Without.
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John Deere 950 w/Yammar 3cyl IDI; Peterson 21" sawmill w/20hp Kohler v-twin; four Stilh chainsaws,  Stilh weedeaters; various Kohler, Onan, Honda, Briggs, Tecumseh singles.

apogee_man

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2009, 05:00:49 AM »
Hi Chris,

Thanks for the reply!

I found the video of your twin running quite some time ago and it was one of the main drivers for me wanting a twin...  It appeared that you "did it right" when you re-assembled it, and having done such, had a very nice setup.

I've figured all along that re-creating a similar solution was well within my grasp.

Each time I've re-watched the vid (been saved to my desktop for over a year), I've thought that it looked like an elegant solution.  Also thought it belonged to Rocketboy because I found it on his site.

The biggest attraction for me was the slower speed which should translate to longer life, and it appears, less noise.  Just not into hearing the machine from inside the house...

I know it's possible to really quiet down a new industrial genset because I've been ten feet from a WhisperWatt and wondered if it was running because I couldn't hear it at all (it was).  I still have no idea how they can make them that quiet....

The primary attraction for me has been the fiddling aspect as that is where I get my fun.  But, as I think about it, the fiddling might not be so fun at the time when I really need it to work...

However, being able to start with a hand-crank does have it's advantages as it's always ready to go and one is not dealing with dead or frozen batteries when they are really needed...

Between you and Mobilebob, you both have me thinking and further analysis will be required.  I may buy one to play with for awhile with low expectations and go from there.  The project list is already so long that I'm never planning to die, so I may as well just keep adding to it...

The slobbering/heat issue that Bob brought up is a big deal and I've been thinking about it and solutions to possibly resolve it.  Still thinking about it...

Thank you for your thoughts!

PS - I like your website!  Looks as if you get to play with some fun toys...  Nice job on the motorcycle restores also...  At one time, I did work for General Dynamics and Northrop and it reminds me of those days...  However, it looks to me like you get to have much more fun!!!
« Last Edit: January 29, 2009, 05:18:41 AM by apogee_man »

apogee_man

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2009, 05:19:57 AM »
Just wanted to thank everyone once again as the replies and the info has been great!

I think I may need a shop building just to keep the various Listers in....

 ::)

cujet

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2009, 06:57:58 PM »
Interesting that you have been looking at my pics for a while. Thanks for the nice comments.

I did my best to persuade you towards a single. Using a different tactic now:

The single (done right) is truly pleasant. As mentioned in websites elsewhere. I can't say it any better than that.  The twin is not pleasant. In fact, it's a mechanical monstrosity akin to standing next to a running jet engine at power. It's twice as loud, and the frequency is not pleasant.

If you are looking for a hobby engine, get a single. Please.

Chris
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sailawayrb

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2009, 07:53:55 PM »
I reckon if one likes a twin, one my get excited about this triple:

http://www.generatorsales.com/order/09937.asp?page=L09937

diesel guy

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2009, 08:24:34 PM »
I know everyone here knows my option by now, with a single vs. a twin. Many people make the mistake of thinking the engines mass is directly related in how long the engine will last and in "most" cases this is fact.

I have an older model Isuzu LB1 3 cylinder engine, (with a cast iron block and head, new ones have an aluminum block) as my heavy duty backup system, to my 14/1 and 16/1. With an Amsoil bypass system on it and marine exhaust manifold for rapid warm ups and conventional radiator.

Like this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/24hp-Isuzu-3LB1-Diesel-Marine-Engine-NOS_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1742Q2em153Q2el1262QQcategoryZ50441QQihZ024QQitemZ370107138725

This engine weighs under 300 lbs. plus the generator and I would bet anyone this little 1,124 cc engine can outlast any Lister type engine between rebuilds, three times over. Don't get me wrong, I love my big singles.

But I have been working with engines "many years" and the point I'm trying to rely is that, not always the engines mass will dictate how long an engine will last. There are other contributing factors that have to be considered, such as how well the block, head and internal components are made.

My 14/1 and 16/1 will need a rebuild before a 6/1 would, but they will surely outlast a twin between rebuilds and can be done in an afternoon, at half the price.

That triple cylinder engine shown, I don't know much about. They may not possess the problems the twin Lister types have and might be very robust. If I had no choice but to pick a a high powered diesel engine beyond the singles,

I would use this proven engine hands down :  
http://www.deere.com/en_US/rg/ESC/SpecSheet/Ind/3029DF150_C_S0_R0.html

Look where the maximum torque occurs,1,000 rpm. Put a 6 pole Marathon alternator on it with its 100,000 hour bearings, makes for a "bulletproof 1,200 rpm genset".


Diesel Guy

sarawnw

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2009, 08:39:40 PM »
Hi

What Jen said in a nut shell.  I understand that some do not care to hear this,  a twin can be run at lower speed to increase durability and reduce noise.  The fuel consumption(WVO) is about the same as a single.  This comparision is a 12/2 at 325 rpm and the posted results for a 6/1 at 650 rpm.  The sound is pleasant and you can have a conversation next to it with out yelling. 

I have had as many problems as everyone else with a 6/1, alot has to do with me being green behind the ears. 

There is some discussion on this site about running a twin with one cylindar,  If it works,  talk about options when times get really bad to get parts. 

Maybe I should buy a single to get the other point of view

Sara

AdeV73

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Re: Which would you choose????
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2009, 08:56:58 PM »
green behind the ears.

Ooh, I haven't heard that expression in years... We used to call it a Craigism, after the chap who frequently mixed up his sayings in that style...  ;D