Global Warming

[mkdutchman]

btw...Have you heard about a report from hundreds of disaffected scientists at that conference in Europe publishing a report about how bogus global warming is?  Our friend Mark Morano wrote in his blog (see earlier post this thread) that this so-called report would be published last Thursday.  I can't find any clues to it.  I guess I'm just clueless 
Stan

This one?

http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=83947f5d-d84a-4a84-ad5d-6e2d71db52d9&CFID=1846903&CFTOKEN=22961608

[SteveU.]

Excellent post Mobile Bob

The big companies must always be in a growth mode and cover both sides of the game. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders/owners. Once GM tied up the patents on catalytic converter technology they flipped sides and supported expensive EPA certification procedures. The costs of either paying royalty rights or using inferior nonviable systems was a large part of bankrupting American Motors Corp.   Robert Bosch did the same thing with electrically controlled  fuel injectors in the sixties and seventies, and Toyota with hybrid vehicle technologies today. You must pay big bucks to play or drop out. Just like poker.

"Cause" driven initiatives become organized and professionally run to be able to extract 5, 10, 15, 25 Dollar donation and your proxy vote. The money and the votes DO add up.  I don't see any difference from a three page plea/scare letter sent to me from the NRA or from the Audobon society sent to my wife. Send money and you will be tagged as an active donator their pleas will increase and they Will sell your names to "sister" organizations.

My experience with politicians comes from a logger Grandfather who became a state legislator to help the rural areas and 40 years later a dairy farmer in-law who did the same. They both did wonderful jobs for their constituents in thier first and second terms but then became seasoned political professionals and forgot their roots. How they lived and how they talked on a personal level became no different then my crooked car dealer relative or a bible thumping missionary cousin. Al Gores family earned thier wealth as tobacco farmers. The cows they now raise will not support his 20,000 foot house and life style.

About those lost jobs Stan: in the last twenty years there has been over 250,000 direct family wage earning jobs lost here in the US Pacific NW in the forest harvest and milling and fisheries and dairy industries. Multiply these out by secondary small supporting industries and companies and there has been over !,000,000 jobs lost here. That many sons and daughters who could not follow their parents in generations old skills and trades. It started with an increasingly unpopular Republican president who sold his signature to get a second term and capped off with a Democrattic president who did the same for his 2nd term too. We've learned the hard way that the core EcoFreaks are uncoprimsable in their anti- "human always BAD" and their Nature every owl, fish, bug and microbe is always GOOD superior to any human.
As Bill Clinton said, " . . . I feel your pain"

Tree farmer
SteveU.

[Stan]

MK...Nope, that report says in a nutshell and I am NOT quoting but paraphrasing , 'don't spend valuable money on trying to save the environment when there are many more valuable things that can be done with that money to further the profits of major corporations'.

The one I am referring to is one that was supposed to be published last Thursday.  That one came out on Dec 11th.

Stan

Addition...Sorry Andrew I forgot to answer your post.  Nope, Never personally licked a flagpole in winter but I have carried many buckets of hot water out to free the tongues of kids who did. 

[SHIPCHIEF]

Click Here It's time to pray for global warming, says Flint Journal columnist John Tomlinson

http://www.mlive.com/opinion/flint/index.ssf/2009/01/its_time_to_pray_for_global_wa.html

Probably a conservative columnist....but this is more like what I notice lately, and 'jibes' with what I was taught.
You too Bob G?

[SHIPCHIEF]

Here is the anti global warming petition site;
This link takes you to many pages of charts and data that global warming alarmists never mention, but is available thru public sites.
It will take some time, it's not as convenient as a sound bite or a newspaper editorial.
http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p36.htm

[Stan]

When I worked for the TSE (Toronto Stock Exchange) one of my buddies in "investigation and enforcement"  invited me up to see the documents that a company under investigation had sent in for review.  They were on the way to being charged with fraud and had court orders to send any and all relevent documents and information to the TSE for investigation.  They had sent 2 - 40 foot moving vans full of file boxes filled with documents to the TSE.

It's an old ploy, bury the "investigators (in this case the general public) with data that may or may not be relevant/accurate/genuine etc, and if you present enough data then everybody will begin to believe that "maybe" they have a case.  That website is a perfect example of bury by bafflegab.  It would take months to investigate the alleged sources of that data to determine if it was genuine or produced by a right wing think tank.

I'll stick with what I can see on the way up the ski lift (tons of young beetle killed pines), what I remember the "climate" was like 50+ years ago and what makes sense to me, thanks. 

It really doesn't matter what "data" people present on either side of this question, I'll continue to live my life being CO₂ poor, energy efficient, and kind to mother earth.  I don't have any say in what goes on in the Ohio Valley, China, Kyoto, or any regulatory agencies, so as the saying goes,

"God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
Courage to change the things I can;
And wisdom to know the difference."

Stan

[mobile_bob]

Stan:

i might, based on your experience accept regional climate change, but am very hesitant to accept global change

your arguement could be turned 180 and used to defeat your assertions surely you realize.


surely it still gets cold enough for kids to get their tounges stuck on flagpoles up there, don't it?

we are well south of you, and my bet is we can get em to stick down here most mornings quite easily.

it is widely reported and recorded across history how man has altered his regional climate, and maybe that is the case up there
in BC?  maybe 30 years ago some bug hugger, or bird lover got a predator of your beetle's on some endangered species list?

now for a question, because i don't know

your old growth forests up there, how old are the oldest in the forest? 100? 200? more?

my point being maybe 1000 years ago there was a similar bug problem, and then came a big fire and erradicated the problem?

surely you don't dispute that there had to have been massive scale fires all through history coming periodically?

it stands to reason that the worst of these fires would have come at times when the beetle's had been busy killing massive amounts
of the forest leaving them dead and very dry?

i think as humans we see what is normal for this planet with ourselves as the focal point.

we are not destroying the planet, there is no arguement to support that.
the planet was here what 4+billion years before we walked the earth, several hundred million years with all sorts of other life forms

yes we might alter certain regions and make them a bit miserable to live in, when that happens we move to more agreeable climates
and momma earth reaches equalibrium again in very short order in most places.

Then again, our good old furnace the sun is cyclic as well, add to that the earths volcano's, an astroid every few hundred thousand years
and somehow i am to believe we humans have any real effect on this rock that the earth cannot recover from?

save for maybe a few thousand nuke warheads all set off at once, scattered around the planet
i just don't see us altering anything on a global scale,, and even if we could it would take a few hundred years to
move it one way or the other.

meanwhile i am supposed to believe algore and a bunch of treehugger, buglovers tell me how i am going to have to live, all while
they continue living in huge home's, driving limo's, old and oversized jets and collecting millions in fee's for speeches to the blind koolaid drinkers that are convinced we are living on a fragile, brittle and on the edge planet that is going to tip over and dump us next week unless
we make draconian changes, pay more taxes and become third world countries.

ya right!

bob g

[SHIPCHIEF]

Stan;
I just did a google on BC climate.
I must say from checking that...I don't believe your assertion that -40 C or F is normal or regularly occurs.
Maybe in the Yukon Territory and around Whitehorse. My wife used to live there.
The areas around the southern 2/3 of BC can't be much different than Washington and Idaho.
Just because you observed some abnormally low temps in your younger life, doesn't make that the expected norm.
Besides, Palm and Mastodon remains have been found in Alaskan sites, indicating a tropical climate. It has been much warmer in the past.

[Stan]

Bob...Actually, the system including pine beetles and their natural enemies has been probably ticking along just like a well balanced Lister for (maybe) ever?  I wouldn't know, I'm not that old.  It is all designed better than the best Lister, so it could quite conceivably have been running perfectly since the last ice age!   As the bugs get more numerous, the natural enemies get more numerous just like a feedback system in an electronic circuit.  It isn't until you stick a monkey wrench into the system (or some Indian sand   ) that it gets buggered up.  It's my opinion (which you well know by now   ) that we have buggered up the system and stuck the monkey wrench into it.  That's using hundreds of millions of year old CO₂ which has trapped heat that should have seeped off into space (one of them thermo dynamic laws or other) and it's raised the temp of the whole earth just enough to allow the nasty little buggers an advantage over their natural enemies. But I guess we'll have to wait for a couple of hundred years to see who's right.  I hope it's you cause if it's me, then we're in for it big time.  It means a run away thermal overload situation, just like on a machine or an electric circuit and you know what that means!  We're toast!  Like I said, I hope you're right.
Stan

Shipchief....yah, I used to run into that all the time in Quesnel.  The temps are recorded at the airport, a good 10 or more degrees warmer than up on the plateau.  I know because I used to fly out of there and knew the guys who manned the radio room (they did the weather).  I remember the coldest day I have ever been in when it was -63 deg F up on the plateau at my school and the airport only recorded -45 F (F is about 10 deg more than C at those temps if my memory is correct).  I was telling them their instruments were wrong and they just shrugged and said all they have to do is record the temps up on the roof of the airport building.  I asked them if there was any insulation in that roof and they pried off some tiles and said "nope"! 

[SHIPCHIEF]

Stan& Bob G;
Here is the BC Pine beetle mitigation plan:
http://www.for.gov.bc.ca/hfp/mountain_pine_beetle/actionplan/2005/obj3.htm
It's not perfect. But it is a plan.
And Stan;
To be fair, you would have to admit your antecdotal temp story is at least as dubious as the charts and graphs of the global warming oposition website (which you won't believe). Less even, you have no documentation or corroborating evidence. (Although I don't doubt you or your sincerity per se)  But it wouldn't hold in court.

[Doug]

I'm realy cold right now....
But I am a firm believer in climate change ( and right now I have flipped to  support a change for the warmer )

[Stan]

Ship.....Yup, Southern 2/3 of BC is much different than Washington.....We're continental climate, Washington is West Coast Marine.  Big difference.  Not even the same ballpark.  Just ask the guys in Montana if they have the same climate as Seattle.  It'll get a chuckle anyway. 
Stan

Addendum....If you want a perfect example of the angst environment canada goes through when they decide where to put their weather recording stations, yesterday on the global TV noon news (check it out, it's a matter of record, not just "my memories") they reported a temp at the airport in Vancouver of 3 deg C and the temp at the top of Grouse Mountain (ski hill) of plus 18 deg C.  So where you measure the temps from day to day greatly influences the so called average temps.

[LowGear]

Let us all remember that the Lister CS is Y2K compatible!

I knew once we lived through that crisis that we could get through anything.

Casey

[Stan]

Yes and as long as it doesn't have too many glitzy integrated circuits controlling shut offs, and speed controls, it's EMP proof as well.  _{can't forget about the N. Koreans here in the Western part of N.A.}   
Stan

[Tom]

Yea but what about the embedded processors in the st heads.